15 responses so far ↓

• 1 Mithaldu // Apr 27, 2009 at 10:59 pm

  Personally, the most fun P&P and related games have been when the rules were the most lax and the DM skilled and creative.

  The strength of ADOM is that it’s so very very complex that it pulls off a very successful job in emulating a DM.

  As such, trying to make a P&P system that emulates the CRPG part of ADOM would be a recursive attempt to make a DM emulate a system that emulates a DM.

  I think the best path would be to make a simple system that prompts the players to use as much and more freedom as the game offers, but maybe offer some tools that step in where a DM can’t match a computer, i.e. creation of data in large masses. Dungeons, etc.

• 2 rabish12 // Apr 28, 2009 at 1:04 am

  I’ve always been a fan of simplicity in P&P games. I hate inflexible systems and I hate anything that takes a ton of rolls just to do a single attack or attempt a single action. The primary purpose of a P&P game (for me, at least) is to allow for strong storytelling and enjoyment with a group, and that means losing as little time as possible to rolls and spending as little time as you can on individual characters so that you can keep up the general flow of the game and so that nobody’s ever left sitting and waiting for someone to finish for too long.

• 3 Tommi // Apr 28, 2009 at 6:05 am

  I’d recommend taking a look at some of the free retro-clones of old school D&D. Swords and wizardry, Labyrinth lord and OSRIC to name a few. Google should find them.

  Old school D&D (and retroclones thereof) is still among the best dungeoncrawling and adventuring games around, as long as resource management is a significant factor in play.

  You may also want to follow some blogs involved in the old school renaissance. The most notable of them is Grognardia: http://grognardia.blogspot.com

• 4 admin // Apr 28, 2009 at 6:40 am

  I’m an avid reader of Grognardia… and I own most of the old school games… and for my tastes they are lacking. Not because they are bad (they are great) but because my tastes have evolved to more flexibility during character generation. I like Swords & Wizardry a lot for its absolute minimalism - but then again find myself to want a little more. Mostly during character generation.

• 5 mossman // Apr 28, 2009 at 6:54 am

  I completely agree with rabish12. These days, my gaming revolves around group motivated and controlled storytelling. Dogs in the Vineyard is a good example of this.

  That said, most systems can be used to facilitate this. Some are better at it than others, and those whose rules are largely optional tend to function the best.

  Also, the rules and system define the style of the the game, as highlighted by Tommi in reference old school D&D. Look at the rules sets of games whose style you appreciate, and design your rules to highlight the style you want.

  There are several articles on these topics at: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/

  There are also more discussions on that site’s forums which specifically deal with game creation.

• 6 Tommi // Apr 28, 2009 at 9:54 am

  Take some old school game, add a robust skill system and a bunch of talents, and you are done.

  When I was just starting roleplaying, we used a homebrew game that was basically a simple stat system, a bunch of skills, some talents (directly stolen from ADOM) and combat system involving attack rolls, damage rolls, hit points, DV and PV. There was also magic. ADOM was among the primary design inspirations.

  Alternatively, if you want to embrace a different style of play, the Shadow of Yesterday is a good choice. It is distributed under some brand of Creative Commons. It has fairly simple but robust rules and handles different cultures and races with great elegancy, IMO.

• 7 TromboneAndrew // Apr 28, 2009 at 11:16 pm

  Based on my limited P&P role-playing experience, I think that emphasis on character interaction and flexibility is the way to go. At the most basic level, these games allow us to take on different faces and learn about ourselves and how to interact well with others. And, of course, just to exercise that ol’ imagination. Too much math gets in the way.

  That said, having lots of character customization can be cool. You can even tie each “talent” with something that needed to happen to a character historically, or as the result of some personality quirks or unique physical ability, for more challenging roleplay. Just as long as those customizations don’t make the math and dice rolling more complex.

• 8 Kawa // Apr 29, 2009 at 12:20 am

  There are many big differences between pen-and-paper and computer RPGs. I’ve been contemplating making a campaign in the world of Ancardia for this summer so this is something that has been on my mind a lot. I’ll be the first to admit I’m very much drawn to the “new era” of tabletop gaming (I *love* 4th Edition), so take what I say with a grain of salt.

  Since there is a DM that decides what the party will or won’t see, a lot of things can change. I’m not a huge fan of DMs making decisions completely randomly/through dice - this worked in a pre-computer era, but if I wanted random generation I’d just play the computer game since it can do it faster and more efficiently. DMs should look at what the party wants, needs, and is good at before throwing encounters around; they are the final authority on what the party sees and experiences. In ADoM (or any roguelike) where much of what the player does is hedging against the Random Number God, this is significant - why would a DM throw a cat in an unfortunate place, or have the puppy die so early? Why would a DM punish characters for not finding the exact solution to problems (e.g. Khelly) s/he was looking for?

  I would want any tabletop game to reward innovation over knowing spoilers, to be non-linear with goals worth having, to let players explore, and to feel free to break from the source material (and the rules) if it makes players happy. I am totally willing to throw mechanics to the winds if it improves the story and the fun. Knowing spoilers and solving specific puzzles works well for computer games, but I feel it would make my players just frustrated and disappointed (especially since none of them know ADoM.)

  The overall quality of a game often doesn’t have much to do with mechanics as much as it does person-person interaction. A great DM with a great set of players can even make a system as horribly jumbled as, say, BESM 2nd Edition fun and memorable; a terrible DM (and/or difficult players) can make the best game turn sour. A system should allow for easy rule adjudication; a campaign setting should give a well-developed world to play in with lots of options for all types of players and DMs; the rest is no longer up to the words on the page.

  I guess the take-home message is “do what makes you happy and let the player groups take care of the rest.” And between your options, I’d much rather see a “spirit of the Drakalor Chain” than “exact replica down to the minutiae.” Mostly because I don’t want to throw cats at players when I don’t feel like it.

• 9 Pustka // Apr 29, 2009 at 3:45 am

  i have moderate experience with P&P. having played systems most popular in Poladn about 4-10 years ago like WFRP, Cyberpunk 2020, Zew Cthulhu, Vampire: Masquerade , Werewolf Apocalypse, Neuroshima. Had couple of game masters. I enjoyed storytelling gameplay the most. The less dice rolling the better. Of course it requires a good game master, who needs to balance players successes and failures with his judgement. Also character creation, espesialy histroy is a great thing to do. About mechanics, well i think Cyberpunk had preatty simple onse, but i cant recall them in detail.

  I would really love to see and play ADOM RPG

• 10 Sradac // Apr 29, 2009 at 7:34 pm

  If you want flexibility in char creation, check out drakensang. that is one insanely complex rule set.

• 11 Tommi // Apr 29, 2009 at 9:45 pm

  Sradac: Flexibility in character generation is much easier to achieve without insane complexity, which adds very little if anything to actual play.

  Das Schwarze Auge is is popular in Germany, so I can only assume mister Biskup is already familiar with it.

• 12 admin // Apr 30, 2009 at 10:41 pm

  Actually I probably was one of the very first “Das Schwarze Auge” customers in… 1984 or 1985. I can’t remember when the very first edition was published (yes, it’s _that_ old and I am that old

• 13 Pustka // May 1, 2009 at 12:43 pm

  i was born in 84 =O

  Grandpa Biskup ^^

• 14 yisk // May 7, 2009 at 9:11 am

  If you will need pictures (for cards, rulebook etc), I can help for a funny price. I became a bit more skilled for the last year. ж)

  http://smages.com/i/21/1f/211f3fe2869a178b364338e61c72a7aa.jpg

• 15 Nimloth // May 20, 2009 at 10:19 pm

  I started role-playing with the original (not Advanced) D&D and DSA (Das Schwarze Auge). So I guess I’m an old fart, too?
  I liked these games because they gave basic rules that were flexible (though sometimes not realistic to the point of being outright silly - but hey, we talk about casting lightning bolts and turning undead anyway, right?).
  What was (for me) the most important thing: The rules ONLY gave the right amount of background, ambient, setting, etc. and thus enabled the players (and the DM) to be creative - make just about anything become a reality within the (pretty open) rules of the gaming world by telling a great interactive story.

  Now, later experiences were with AD&D and Rolemaster and also later editions of DSA (after Schmidt Spiele it became worse, I think). The problem was twofold:
  In an attempt to make things more ‘realistic’, tons of additional rules and possibilities were introduced that, for me, actually reduced the fun. Why would I want to play a game where I am being told everything in the form of huge tables that I have to refer to all the time (Rolemaster was especially bad here.)
  The other part was an attempt of making things more flexible: just think of the I can combine any class with any class in my uber character madness that is AD&D now. (Let’s play an evil Cleric-Mage and throw in a couple of assassin prestige class levels!? I mean: that’s overkill). For me the fun has always been the restrictions that a specific character had and trying to play the role.

  Anyway, for both these trends the same outcome is true: You pretty much NEED a computer to plan your character ahead of time to take the right skill points and feats and god knows what or to make looking up on a critical hit fas tenough to keep everyone’s attention. And somehow, I think, the creativity part of RPG is then lost under a layer of too many rules.

  So, while that sort of thing *may* work perfectly in a gaming world where the computer does all the DM stuff, in pen & paper I would restrict the amount of rules to something more suitable to story-telling, playing out character traits and quirks, etc.
  Much more fun, IMHO.

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