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Nezur
03-12-2008, 08:51 PM
I'm eager to know how many gods there will in the game. One for each ethical alignment (Good, Uncaring, Evil) for every race a bit like in ADOM or one god for each alignment combination? It would be nice if worshipping a given god granted special benefits.

theotherhiveking
03-12-2008, 10:07 PM
Like in Stone soup dungeon crawl? That game as a GREAT deity system, and i love it a lot, much more than adom one.

Grey
03-12-2008, 11:01 PM
Anyone mind describing this great deity system in stone soup dungeon crawl? I've never played it (though I've heard it's got some great features).

theotherhiveking
03-12-2008, 11:24 PM
Anyone mind describing this great deity system in stone soup dungeon crawl? I've never played it (though I've heard it's got some great features).

Sure (its need to be adapted)

You start with no god (unless with some classes) After a while, you can get to an altar an chose one, gods are very diferent, praying draws their attention and do not annoys him (note that by praying
the god will not heal or fill you stomach) Some gods enjoy kills, other not, so if you start as a death knight, you can chose to draw your powers from the death god, so killing everything in the most horrible way, will make him happy, as you get close to him, he will grant you with powers, for example, 1 power you get in a death knight is to animate corpses, after more killing and making him happier, he will make you even more powerful, giving you lost of the necromancer's skills, the downside is that if you cant make it happy all the time, he will forget you and retire most of your powers gradually.

Each god as diferent personality, for example, the death god does not like having corpses sacrificed, he prefers that you animate them for further killing.

Other odd god is the chaos one, he treats you as a toy, you are his toy, he can make the things extremely nice for you giving powerful weapons, and a turn later, poisoning you when you are 2hp left you to see if you manage you survive.

IronJelly
03-12-2008, 11:37 PM
Sure.

Basically, each of the gods (there are currently 14), have rules for worshipping them (ie: you must be an orc to worship the orc god, you can never use magic while being a follower of one of the other gods, ect.), and you gain piety in various ways (some like to see LOTS of bloodshed, others want you to slay undead, or fight honourably, or burn every book you see). Eventually, with enough piety, the gods give you various rewards in the form of either an ability, or an item (the spellcasting god allows you to learn additional spells, the god of war allows you to summon a servant, the necromancer god protects you from some of the side effects of necromantic magic).

On the flip side, the gods also watch you, and if you do something that offends them, such as worshipping another god, or breaking their rules, (with some gods, they only see this if you do it while praying), you suffer penance. Each god has punishments fitting their theme (the god of chaos could accidentally reward you, the spellcasting god lowers your intellect, among other things). You can overcome the penance, but i find most of the time, if my character is not particularly powerful, an offense means death.

I do think it has some nice features, such as being able to pick your god, even if they don't actually suit the character you started. There are restrictions which make sense (ie, if you are a mummy, you can not worship the god who fights undead), and some classes start with a god (ie, a healer starts the game worshipping the healing god), which makes it difficult to change.

The diety system serves a few purposes. I like the flexibility, in that you could choose to use the benefits of your religion to cover your weaknesses, or to enhance your strengths (a necromancer who also follows the necromantic god is quite powerful in the late game, but one who follows the god of violent death has a much better array of abilities at his disposal for the few times that the undead slaves can't cut it).

One god of note is the god of the abyss. This one, really is in place to add an additional method of escape from the abyss, and his altars can (AFAIK) only be found there. While being really powerful, he also is dangerous, but is welcome as far as flavor goes.

I definately think JADE could benefit from an expansive diety system, and because the game does not particularly need to be balanced (unless there is multiplayer i haven't heard about), it is probably ok to allow the gods to be diverse without severely overpowering any specific class.

EDIT: damn, i was too late.

Grey
03-13-2008, 03:17 AM
Very interesting... and obviously much more complex than ADOM's race and alignment based pantheon. Would be nice to see something similar in JADE. Perhaps it could have the regular racial gods too, and PCs would be allowed to worship several gods at once (as long as they are similar gods - the gods would have their own relations with each other) but can only become champion of one.

yisk
03-13-2008, 03:49 AM
If we have a gods in JADE, therе should be a theory of athomism (for thouse who think that their world begins to exist without help of Thomas)

kala
03-13-2008, 06:42 AM
Sure (its need to be adapted)

You start with no god (unless with some classes) After a while, you can get to an altar an chose one, gods are very diferent, praying draws their attention and do not annoys him (note that by praying
the god will not heal or fill you stomach) Some gods enjoy kills, other not, so if you start as a death knight, you can chose to draw your powers from the death god, so killing everything in the most horrible way, will make him happy, as you get close to him, he will grant you with powers, for example, 1 power you get in a death knight is to animate corpses, after more killing and making him happier, he will make you even more powerful, giving you lost of the necromancer's skills, the downside is that if you cant make it happy all the time, he will forget you and retire most of your powers gradually.

Each god as diferent personality, for example, the death god does not like having corpses sacrificed, he prefers that you animate them for further killing.

Other odd god is the chaos one, he treats you as a toy, you are his toy, he can make the things extremely nice for you giving powerful weapons, and a turn later, poisoning you when you are 2hp left you to see if you manage you survive.

sounds quite interresting... might have to try this some time soon.

electric_wizard
03-13-2008, 01:38 PM
I've never played soup stone either (sounds good though) but I'm not a huge fan of the way ADOM does gods. I definitely think you should be able to choose who you pray and sacrifice to. If you give your attention to an unsuitable god then there should be consequences, but it should still be up to you.

adom-admin
03-13-2008, 04:37 PM
I'm eager to know how many gods there will in the game. One for each ethical alignment (Good, Uncaring, Evil) for every race a bit like in ADOM or one god for each alignment combination? It would be nice if worshipping a given god granted special benefits.

So far I have not given much thought to the religion system in JADE, but alignments actually are different from ADOM. I have adapted the Order...Balance...Chaos and Good...Neutral...Evil scale from another well-known roleplaying game because it IMHO fits extremely well to computer roleplaying games.

This also cleans up the ADOM problem of letting Chaos always appear evil and Order always good... the forces of Chaos from ADOM according to my current line of thinking will be called the forces of Corruption in JADE (basically Chaotic/Evil to make the point clear). This also fits to my Andor Drakon PC from an ancient AD&D campaign who was a C/E priest worshipping a minor demon from the Abysss, later slaying him and final raising himself to Demonlord status to gain eternal life... he was modelled after the bad guy in that movie with Eddie Murphy and this golden child... can't remember the name right now.

Ok, enough rambling... JADE has two scales :-) Whatever that means for religion. But I like the idea of being able to choose the deity your worship. I think I will go for a unified pantheon (with some race-specific deities and some for general concepts and different names for various races) where the effectivity of your pious deeds is proportional to how close you are to the deity (e.g. a C/G elf sacrificing to O/E hobgoblin deity probably won't receive all that much recognition). Or so... we'll see. Please keep posting suggestions - I liked them a lot so far :-)

theotherhiveking
03-13-2008, 05:07 PM
Lets see if you like this.

Note this goes together with what IronJelly and I said.


You start with no religion unless you are a priest.

Next step is to find a temple of the god alignment you are going to chose (FE; Death, War, Chaos, Nature, Magic...)

So, each Alignment has around 4 gods, maybe 1 more.

You worship ALL of them.

Each god has a different personality.

Having a good and balanced relation with all of them provides some extra bonuses, and maybe (only maybe) luck.

To take thier attention you must Pray and them choose to what god.

You can only Sacrifice and Offer (or doing things that make the god happier) if you have prayed a few turns before, otherwise, he will not notice unless you have a very high level of relation ship with that god (he will be paying attention 90% of the time).

You cant be the champion of an only god, you must be a champion of the whole alignment, so to become a champion of death, you must have a very high relation with your god, as well as being a powerful necromancer (i readed somewhere that classes will only affect the initial values of the skills, equipament and stats (so a necromancer with a lot of practice can master archery, and a archer learn how to ignite their arrows in air))

Crossworshipping exist; This means, that if you have a high relationship with death god, chaos only will know a like you too, and will love if you switch to their alignment, and totally the opposite with Order gods.

IronJelly
03-13-2008, 05:55 PM
That is interesting. Seems a bit complicated, but I like it. One thing I like about Stone Soup, is that you could voluntarily go without religion if you wanted. No benefits, but no need to worry about sacrifice, or offending the god.

The only problem I had in ADOM with the religion, was that you lost piery when you prayed. Eventually, prayer alone can annoy your god. This fit the balance, since the god generally did not interfere, or intervene unless you prayed, where the SS gods are active most of the time. Just the same, it would be nice to be able to pray to your god, not specifically to gain anything, but just to see your standing, maybe even gain piety in the proccess, or to do so as an initial action for something else (ie: in SS, you have to be in prayer to properly sacrifice a corpse.)

Your suggestion reminds me of the alignment system in Well of Souls. If you practice Fire magic, you gain skill in the adjacent schools (chaos and death) as well, but you are pulling the three school opposite from you away (in this case order, life, and water). You could actually level two opposing schools, but it took a lot more work. You had a ranking in all eight sets.

Grey
03-13-2008, 11:36 PM
This also fits to my Andor Drakon PC from an ancient AD&D campaign who was a C/E priest worshipping a minor demon from the Abysss, later slaying him and final raising himself to Demonlord status to gain eternal life...

Wow... This is very interesting for a story I've been writing on Andor's background...

Back to the topic though, I would like a Roman or Norse pantheon of sorts, with lots of gods you can worship at once for different things, with some being mutually exclusive and some being race and class specific. Altars need not be different colours - they can be open to all, and you choose who to sacrifice or pray to when you use those commands. Perhaps in the beginning you'd only be aware of certain gods related to your race, class and alignment, but as you advance you can learn about others (they might even take a direct interest in you). Temples would exist in cities where you can convert or at least learn more about a specific deity. Some of the more powerful and unique gods could only be learned about through difficult and obscure side quests (a hidden temple far off in some ruins for instance).

Rewards could vary from increased luck and stats, to specific powers (like class powers) that rely on a strong relationship with your god. They could also give resistances and immunities, affinities to specific weapons and armour, and affect your relations with other monsters (champions of the orc god would find all orcs friendly for instance, whilst being hostile to all elves). It should be difficult to get these high rewards though - you should have to really prove yourself to a god with major quests and trials.

Would be nice also if you could meet and potentially kill gods in JADE (if powerful enough) and then devour their essence to gain immense power, much like young Andor did. You could start picking off lesser gods and then move up the food chain, building yourself up to God of Ancardia.

Some ideas on fitting ADOM gods:

Main Gods
These deities are widely known, though some may have different names to different races. Temples to them can be found in most major cities in Ancardia. They are very powerful, with millions of followers, and have great control over the forces of nature and the fate of the world. Those who catch their eye can be guaranteed immense power.

Vellius - God of War
Description: The 4-armed master of all combat
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All
Initially avilable to: All fighting classes, any born in Sword
Rewards: Improved physical stats and skills, better combat bonuses, etc.

Risus - God of the Sun
Description: Lifegiver and fire-bearer
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Available to: All
Initially available to: All surface races (non-dark elves, humans, drakelings, hurthlings)
Rewards: Higher healing rate, fire resistance. Stronger during daylight hours and summer months.

Silvia - Goddess of the Moon
Description: Ethereal Lady of the Heavens.
Alignment: Neutral good.
Available to: Any that are not chaotic evil
Initially available to: Grey elves, priests, wizards
Rewards: Appearance, magic and luck bonuses. Stronger during moon cycles and eclipses.

Raha - Goddess of Night
Description: The mute Lady of Twilight (Silvia's sister). Favours those who live in the shadows.
Alignment: Chaotic neutral
Available: Any that are not lawful good
Initially available to: Assassins, thieves, any born in Raven
Rewards: Stealth and dexterity bonuses, better night vision. Stronger at night.

Esilio - God of Magic
Description: The grand patron of all mages and overseer of the flow of Mana.
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: Any with knowledge of magic
Initially avilable to: All spellcasters, any born in Wand
Rewards: Stronger magic, reduced spellcasting costs. Resistance to magic at higher piety.

Aerie - Goddess of Nature
Description: Guardian of plants and crops, overseer of the weather cycles
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All
Initially available to: Hurthlings, Wood Elves, Druids, Rangers, Farmers, any born in Tree
Rewards: Higher toughness, improved herb skills. Plants are non-hostile to her champions.

Loscaster - God of Nobility
Description: Protector of thrones and forces of good. Takes the appearance of a white unicorn.
Alignment: Lawful Good
Available to: Lawful good and neutral good characters.
Initially available to: Good paladins and priests, any born in Unicorn
Rewards: Appearance, strength, resistance to corruption. Improved favour with kings and nobility.

Celimbra - Goddess of Health
Description: Many are the temples to Celimbra across the world, and her priestesses welcome in all who are in need of healing or restoration.
Alignment: Neutral Good
Available to: All (though evil chars can't advance far)
Initially available to: Healers, paladins, priests, any born in Candle
Rewards: Higher toughness and healing rate, better healing magic, resistance to sicknesses.

Pelivary - God of Music
Description: Lord of music, dance, drinking and festivities.
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Available to: All
Initially available to: Bards, anyone with music
Rewards: Improved music skills, resistance to drink, higher charisma and dexterity.

Urin - Goddess of the Hunt
Description: Noble slayer of evil, and hunter of animals
Alignment: Neutral Good
Available to: All non-evil
Initially available to: Rangers, any born in Falcon
Rewards: Improved archery, food preservation. Stronger against evil creatures and animals. Greater control over wilderness encounters.

Valax - Lord of Treachery
Description: A dark god who men look for when they wish to gain power. His temples are hidden but widespread.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Available to: All non-good
Initially available to: All evil races
Rewards: Greater powers in your class, but usually at a price... Champions of Valax may become targets of others of his servants that are jealous of their status.

Nefaria - Lady of Vengeance
Description: The smiter, the justifier, the reclaimer. Many turn to Nefaria when the law is not enough. Bounty hunters, the weak and the desperate all call her name.
Alignment: Chaotic neutral
Available to: All bar lawful goods
Initially available to: All
Rewards: Improved willpower, stealth. Grants great favour on those that help others take vengeance.

Mexiphal - God of Suffering
Description: Lover of pain and sadness. His temples are widespread in evil cities, and many underground cults can be found dedicated to him across the world. Many pray to cause suffering on others, or to alleviate their own.
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Available to: All non-good
Initially available to: All evil races
Rewards: Improved toughness and willpower. Greater rewards for giving enemies a slow death, and for sacrificing children.

(continues next post)

Grey
03-13-2008, 11:37 PM
(can't believe I hit the char limit so easily...)


Lesser Gods
These gods are well known, but less worshipped. Temples are harder to find, and initiation can be more difficult. They generally have less power than the main gods, but they take more of an interest in their few followers. Great rewards can be had by impressing one of these deities.

Linzit - The Joker
Description: Lord of tricks and jokes, always unpredictable. Small temples can be found to him in the major cities.
Alignment: Chaotic neutral
Available to: All non-lawfuls
Initially available to: Bards, thieves
Rewards: Usually two-edged swords, such as the gauntlets of eternal peace. Generally greater luck for those who please him most. The greatest rewards go to those who can trick even him.

Huuvit - Lord of Decay
Description: Bringer of disease and plague, rotter of bodies and witherer of crops.
Alignment: Neutral evil
Available to: Any who practise necromancy
Initially available to: Necromancers
Rewards: Greater necromancy skills and corpse preservation. Protection from undead attacks.

Anisatia - Goddess of Nightmares
Description: Wrecker of dreams and bringer of dark prophecies. Many pray to her to curse the sleep of their enemies.
Alignment: Chaotic neutral
Available to: All
Initially available to: Mindcrafters
Rewards: Willpower, resistance to sleep, improved mindcraft.

Lavia - Goddess of Redemption
Description: Once a mortal dark elf, she turned from the evil ways of her race and became a great champion of good, eventually rising up to become a minor deity. Though her followers are heavily persecuted it is still possible to find small temples to her hidden in many evil cities.
Alignment: Neutral good
Available to: All non-evils
Initially available to: Any race that starts off evil but then switches
Rewards: Bonuses against evil monsters. Favour with her makes it easier for formerly evil characters to gain favour with good gods that would ordinarily shun them.

Turgo - God of Death
Description: Guardian of the souls of the dead. Immensely powerful, but little worshipped and few are able to claim his favour. His temples are rare.
Alignment: True neutral
Available: All
Initially available to: None
Rewards: Increased chance to avoid death and death attacks. Greater power against undead. Increases life span at high piety.

Gelion - Lord of Crafts
Description: A maker of many things, and revered by all tradesmen. Cities that rely on manufacture and production will likely have small temples in his honour.
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Available: All
Initially available: Weaponsmiths
Rewards: Improves skill chances, especially the likes of alchemy, fletchery and smithing. Improves relations with common people.

Deelis - God of Animals
Description: Protector of wildlife. Whilst not against those who hunt for food, she favours those who save animals and wild habitats from the corruptive forces threatening the world.
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Available: All
Initially available to: Druids, beastfighters, any born in Wolf
Rewards: Easier fighting with animals, more protection from poison and sickening attacks. Improved physical stats.

Ravinon - God of Trade
Description: Considered both a lord of avarice and a lover of coin - all merchants know to respect him. Temples to him can be found in the biggest cities.
Alignment: Chaotic neutral
Available: All
Initially available to: Merchants, any born in Cup
Rewards: Improved shop prices and dealings with the rich. Find more gold and treasures. Can be difficult to please though - many rich merchants compete for his favour.

Sulso - God of the Sea
Description: Worshipped and feared by sailors across the world, his temples can mostly be found in port towns.
Alignment: True neutral
Available: All
Initially available to: Humans
Rewards: Improved strength, swimming and speed in water. Resistance to water attacks. Champions can breath water and aqautic enemies are non-hostile to them.


Racial Gods
These deities are widely known in their respective races, and have very powerful influence over their peoples. People not of their race are able to gain favour from them by proving themselves great friends of that race, but can never achieve high amounts of piety or champion status. Major cities will always have a temple to their main race's god, and some mixed cities will have multiple racial temples.

Corellius - Lord of the Elves
Description: The grand lord of elfdom, and chiefly worshipped by their warriors and archers. One of the oldest and most powerful gods.
Alignment: Lawful good
Available to: All non-evil (though only elves can rise far - mostly favours high elves)
Initially avilable to: All non-evil elves
Rewards: Improved strength and dexterity, improved skill with higher metal weapons and bows. Elves will become very friendly to any champion of Corellius.

Ayssia - Lady of the Elves
Description: Wife of Corellius, and greatly loved by the elven peoples. She is more worshipped by magic users, and also grants good favour to elf-friends.
Alignment: Neutral good
Available to: All non-evil (though only elves can rise far - mostly favours grey elves)
Initially avilable to: All non-evil elves
Rewards: Improved willpower and mana, stronger magic attacks. Elves will become very friendly to any champion of Ayssia.

Lol'th - The Spider Queen
Description: An evil monster of the underworld and lover of cruel sacrifices, all dark elves are bound to her will.
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Available to: All evil (though only dark elves can rise far)
Initially available to: All dark elves
Rewards: Improved dexterity and mana, stronger magic attacks, stealth and backstabbing. Champions will still find other dark elves hostile (since they are a competitive race), but many spiders will be subservient to their will.

Onn - Human God of Fate
Description: Controller of the forces of destiny, he is very actively involved in the affairs of his followers.
Alignment: Lawful good
Available to: All good and lawful neutrals (though only humans can gain high favour)
Initially available to: Good and lawful humans
Rewards: Greater defensive powers, higher willpower and toughness.

Istaria - Human God of Luck
Description: Manipulater of the chances in fate, and the small forces that can lead to big changes. Worshipped by gamblers and those low in life.
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All (though only neutral humans can gain high favour)
Initially available to: Neutral humans
Rewards: Mugh higher luck, higher mana and perception.

Ssraxx - Human God of Time
Description: The inevitable bringer of death, the destuctor and passer of all things. Time is an evil thing to short-lived humans, and those who worship Ssraxx hope to delay their death.
Alignment: Neutral evil
Available to: All non-good (though only evil humans can gain high favour)
Initially available to: Evil humans
Rewards: Greater attack powers, greater learning and strength, and longer life. Those who betray him will find themselves much shorter in years.

Morodwyn - God of Dwarves
Description: The great smith who forged the hardy race of dwarves. Loved by all the bearded folk.
Alignment: Lawful good
Available to: All lawfuls (though only dwarves can gain high favour)
Initially available to: All dwarves
Rewards: Greater smithing powers, greater skill with axes, higher strength and toughness, longer beard. Dwarves become extremely loyal to any champion of Morodwyn.

Berwyn - God of Gnomes
Description: A thinker and a tinkerer, Berwyn put all his lust for secrets into his race of gnomes.
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All (though only gnomes can gain high favour)
Initially available to: All gnomes
Rewards: Better gemology, higher learning, better at skills in general. Champions will garner more respect from all gnomes.

Shalla - Goddess of Hurthlings
Description: The bringer of fruits is mostly worshipped by hurthlings around harvest time when they give up one fifth of their crops in her name.
Alignment: Lawful good.
Available to: All non-evil (though only hurthlings can gain high favour)
Initially available to: All hurthlings
Rewards: More dexterity and toughness, better food preservation and herbalism. Hurthlings will be very loyal to any champion of Shalla.

Issrecht - God of Drakelings
Description: Actually an immensely poweful dragon from the early days of time, Issrecht invented the drakelings to be children for him after being spurned by the target of his love.
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All (though only drakelings can gain high favour)
Initially available to: All drakelings, anyone born in Salamander
Rewards: More toughness and better healing, longer life, stronger breath attack. Drakelings will be loyal to champions of Issrecht.

Vagrak - God of Trolls
Description: A dark and bloody god who created the trolls to lay waste to the races of the other gods he despised.
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Available to: All evil (though only trolls can gain high favour)
Initially available to: All trolls
Rewards: Higher strength and toughness, higher regen. Gains allegiance from lesser trolls.

The One Who Rages - God of Orcs
Description: A powerful and destructive dark god from the dawn of time, driven into the underworld by an allegiance of the other gods and trapped there for eternity. He spawned the race of orcs to escape from the dark depths and claim vengeance on the other gods.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Available to: All evil (though only orcs can gain high favour)
Initially available to: All orcs
Rewards: Higher strength and attack power. Those who manage to free him from his underground dungeon will find themselves rewarded very richly. Most lesser orcs will be loyal to a champion of The One.

(continued next post...)

Grey
03-13-2008, 11:38 PM
(and finally...)


Rare Gods
These are gods that are unknown to most, and can only be found through difficult quests and obscure dungeons. Only the greatest can gain their favour, but those who do will find themselves in a deeply personal relationship with an immensely powerful entity that can bring them huge reward.

Schzexxvilosis - Lord of Dragons
Description: The first dragon from the dawn of time, a raw representation of the elements that shape the world. Only supremely powerful adventurers can find his temple deep in the heartland of dragons. Those who dare disturb his slumber had best be sure they are worthy for the challenges he will issue, lest they suffer a very quick demise.
Alignment: Lawful evil
Available to: Those that can find him (any born in Dragon will find this slightly easier)
Initially available to: None
Rewards: Extreme physical and mental powers, possibly even the ability to turn into a dragon, complete with breath attacks, flight, etc. A champion of Schzexxvilosis will find many lesser dragons subservient to him.

XXXX - God of Grues
Description: Beyond description, with a name beyond mortal thought. The true lord of darkness, who lies hid in the depths of the world. Only the insane would dare seek him out.
Alignment: Neutral evil
Available to: Those that find him and somehow live
Initially available to: None
Rewards: Extreme physical and mental powers. Ability to see in darkness. Those who rise high can attain the title of Gruewalker - one who is constantly doomed but cannot be harmed by grues.

Kelvekinar - Lord of Corruption
Description: One of the Trinity of Elder Chaos Gods. Was killed by Andor Drakon millenia ago, but can be revived by one who holds the Crown of Chaos. Governs corruption of the flesh, and once controlled all forces of corruption across Ancardia.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Available to: Evils that can revive him
Initially available to: None
Rewards: Many positive corruptions, such as extra limbs, attunements to higher planes, thicker skin, etc. Attacks will corrupt others, and corrupted creatures will be subservient to your will.

Heloxia - Queen of Insanity
Description: One of the Trinity of Elder Chaos Gods. Was killed by Andor Drakon millenia ago, but can be revived by one who holds the Medal of Chaos. Governs corruption of the mind, and founded the order of chaos to spread worship of her across the world.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Available to: Evils that can revive her
Initially available to: None
Rewards: Greater mental and magical powers and resistances. Chaos brothers and sisters will be friendly, as will other insane creatures.

Zelgerov - General of Chaos
Description: One of the Trinity of Elder Chaos Gods. Was killed by Andor Drakon millenia ago, but can be revived by one who holds the Sceptre of Chaos. Governs corruption of the soul, and once commanded all the forces of chaos knights and servants. Created the race of molochs in his image.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Available to: Evils that can revive him
Initially available to: None
Rewards: Greater physical powers and resistances, and powerful weapons and armour. Chaos knights will be subservient to any champion of Zelgerov.

Andor Drakon - ElDeR cHaOs GoD
Description: Few are those who worship him directly, yet the actions of many are under his influence. Even forces of good can be pawns in his schemes to lay waste to Ancardia. He began life as a simple human, but rose to greatness and power, eventually killing and devouring the Trinity of Elder Chaos Gods and absorbing their power, becoming the new ElDeR cHaOs GoD. All forces of chaos bend to his will, and few are those who can stand against him.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Available to: Chaotic evils that can impress him enough
Initially available to: None
Rewards: Those who prove themselves worthy to him and manage to rise in his ranks can find themselves becoming strong enough to be his general, commanding all the forces of chaos invading Ancardia. There is much competition within his ranks though, and any worshipper will find himself constantly assaulted by rivals. But still, the power he can offer is beyond what any other God can give. Unless, of course, you take his power for your own...

theotherhiveking
03-14-2008, 12:52 AM
Hey Grey I LOVE YOU! In a non-gay way :p

You just solved the whole problem.

Grey
03-14-2008, 06:03 AM
I just remembered ratlings are getting included in JADE. Should add a god for them (it won't fit into an edit):

Snixarril - God of Ratlings
Description: The blind Snixarril in his youth took the most base of creatures and rose them up. He taught them to walk instead of crawl, he taught them chivalry instead of scavenging. Now they are a powerful and noble race, much respected across Ancardia as the most honourable soldiers. Ratlings worship Snixarril with a passion and still follow his holy texts to the very word (including the bit about bathing three times daily).
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Available to: All lawfuls (though only ratlings can gain high esteem)
Initially available to: Ratlings
Rewards: Higher dexterity and greatly imrpoved melee skills. Champions of Snixarril gain huge favour from other ratlings, and also high regard amongst lawful soliders and knights.

And yeah, I've got too much time on my hands :P

Epythic
03-14-2008, 11:14 AM
Well done, Grey, I like it.

Now I am really thinking about what gods to choose...

coppro
03-15-2008, 04:23 AM
Just want to point out a little thing I found funny: ADOM/JADE appears to consistently be behind on the times... DnD is now getting rid of the L/C axis, in favor of just G/E.

I really like the idea of choices of deities. One thing that's always proved prohibitive to me in RLs, though, is the fact that absolutely everything must be learned - ADOM has, by far, the best manual, because it actually explains most of the basic concepts of the game. Make sure that I can understand this system!

Grey
03-15-2008, 04:58 AM
Going to a simple good/evil system is an awful idea in a role-playing game. There are such huger complexities at stake! Video games are already cursed by simple black and white systems (quoting Yahtzee Croshaw: you're either Mother Theresa or a baby-eater) it'd be terrible to see PnP going the same route. L/C is vital when consider a character's motivations. LN, LE, CG and CN are all especially interesting. I love the idea of despotic rulers that are not necessarily evil, but not really good either - shades of grey are always far more interesting.

I have some further thoughts on implementation of religion that I'll post later. I believe it's quite easy to create a simple, elegant system that anyone can understand, but that will have majorly complex effects on gameplay and tactics.

Grey
03-15-2008, 07:59 AM
Okay, so here's a few ideas I've been having based on the suggestions in this thread...

In ADOM characters have various levels of piety. It's an integer amount, and can be positive or negative. Getting high piety is easy by direct sacrifice. Attaining certain levels can give bonuses or punishments. You can become champion by praying with enough piety, after which you are stuck to that general alignment. When crowned though you can still drop to low amounts of piety, and can still do all sorts of things that are against your god's teaching.

Overall this system is open to huge abuse. Alignment is changed easily through saccing small amounts of gold at altars, and after gaining rewards from the god there's little risk of losing them. The actions of the character have almost no bearing on the god - it's mostly about material sacrifice in fact. Huge amounts of gold are easily attained, even early game, allowing for rich rewards without any further maintenance.

In JADE the idea expressed in this thread is for a more complex system, with different gods the PC can choose to worship at his will. The PC would get different rewards and powers from each god, and this could heavily influence their abilities. One could choose to reinforce existing powers, or use a god different from one's class to make a more multi-tasking character. This would make religion a huge influence on the character, such that you could no longer just say you're a Candle-born trollish healer - you're now a Candle-born trollish healer of Celimbra - truly the ultimate in regeneration combos! In short your chosen deity becomes as important as your chosen class, and would add a wealth of depth to your character.

So, looking at religion as a class, how about we give it levels and class powers? Piety points would act like experience points, and ascending through the levels of piety would raise your powers in accordance with that god's speciality. Piety point requirements for levelling would raise exponentially, like xp does. At specific levels you could gain titles, and with these titles new powers. In-game you wouldn't see any points - you'd just see either the levels or the titles (perhaps only priests could see the exact levels). Dropping piety is possible, and if you reduce in level you lose all the higher level's powers. This could mean that praying in the heat of a difficult battle could weaken you greatly, so you have to balance the necessity carefully.

Ideas for titles:
- Level 1, Initiate. The usual starting point - a regular member of the church. Small bonuses, if any.
- Level 6, Follower. A more involved member of the religion, granted certain extra favours.
- Level 12, Faithful. A true believer in the ways of their god, given additional favour and more respect amongst normal church members.
- Level 18, Devout. One who's life has become more centred around the teachings of their faith, and whose continued service has given them special attention from their deity.
- Level 24, Disciple. One chosen and blessed by the god to follow their path closely, and given greater favour. It is not possible to get above Disciple status for more than one god.
- Level 30, Champion. A great force in his religion that worships their lord/lady fervently. He will be given great power to help further his god's wishes. Extremely high standing in the church. (Requires special quests.)
- Level 40, Messiah. The messenger of their god, endowed with divine powers to bring to fruition all their god's desires. (Requires very special quests.)
- Level 50, Avatar. The very face of their lord on Ancardia. All they do is a representation of their god's will, and civilisations will harken to their words. (Requires extreme quests on the order of slaying other gods, wiping out cities or species, etc.)

Gaining piety is a matter of pleasing your god. Direct sacrifice is possible, but can only gain you so much. It would not be possible to simply acquire huge hordes of gold to become the messiah of a religion. Some gods would frown upon material sacrifices or living sacrifices, others might value it highly but only if done in sufficient quantities. The real way to gain piety is to act in accordance of your religion, or complete religion-specific quests. Acting in accordance with religion means your day to day actions must match your god's philosophy. Casting powerful magic gains favour with Elisio, etc. Different actions would affect your piety by different amounts. Care would have to be taken to not allow simple grinding (though exponential increases in requirements should help with that). Some positions may be impossible to attain unless you complete a high-powered quest. Lesser gods will have lesser requirements, but lower rewards.

Losing piety happens gradually over time, though is usually countered by the PC's normal actions unless he severely neglects his religion. You can also lose piety through direct actions that are against your beliefs - some more serious than others. Killing dwarves won't make you popular with Morodwyn, and chopping down trees won't put you in Aerie's good books. Serving opposing deities can reduce your standing too. Getting a very negative rating with a deity may result in them trying to curse or punish you, or sending servants out to attack you, though having high standing with a different deity will protect you from most of this. This means that life would be more difficult for atheists who don't have this protection. Being a high member of a religion and then abandoning it could result in retribution.

You have standings with all deities at all times, but will not receive any positive effect from this unless you are actually a member (nor will you be able to see your position with that god unless you are a member). At the beginning of the game you can choose from different starting religions to belong to (possibly even choosing several) based on your race/class/starsign etc (see above). Encountering temples and altars through the game can allow you to sign up for more. However you might still gain the attention of gods without worshipping them - becoming high in their powers might even make them actively try to recruit you (and spurning them could lead to bad things...)

Rewards from gods will be based on that deity's specialisation. They would generally be on the same order as class powers and talents. Some rewards would be individual powers, like summoning elementals, others would be specific bonuses to stats and skills, others would be the likes of reduced spellcasting cost. Many would have their power based on your current piety level (eg. +5 HP per piety level, or +1% magic resistance for every 3 piety levels). Artifact rewards are possible at higher levels, but the reward would be based on the god, not your class (or possibly random). There would no longer be the traditional luck/fate smiles (though some gods might grant these). With some balancing in other areas this could make Fate Smiles a much rarer and more exclusive intrinsic (which I'd say is appropriate).

Punishments from gods would include cursing and dooming, plaguing, summoning hostile creatures, energy bolting, cursing equipment, turning equipment to dust, killing companions (who may be less protected by your god), rains of acid/stone/fire, abusing stats, reducing DV, making more people hostile, reducing affection from NPCs who worship that god, tying shoelaces together, etc.

Characters can still pray to gods for aid, and usually will receive the same effects as in ADOM. HP/PP restoration, removal of dooming, etc. Piety is decreased by doing this, and certain levels of piety are needed to achieve certain things. Prayer costs increase through usage as in ADOM. Some gods will be cheaper for certain things than others. For instance Celimbra will be quick to heal, but Ssraxx is unlikely to remove dooming.

Altars can be randomly found in dungeons, but no longer are specific colours. Some may be exclusive to specific gods, and can be used to become an initiate in their faith, or converted to your own religion (if you're powerful enough). Most though would be generic, and you can sacrifice to any god at them. At high powers you can change a generic altar to one dedicated to one specific god (which would gain you piety with that god, but abuse others). When saccing at generics you would choose which of the religions you're a member of to sac to (simply pressing enter would result in saccing to your highest standing god - there would be a configuration variable to make this automatic for those that prefer). Potions can be blessed and items ided as per normal. You *can* be sacced by other creatures, and potentially any other creature around if it's a generic altar. However having a higher standing with a god will protect you from this. But if a creature is powerful it may have a higher standing with its own god to overcome this and sac you. Thus anyone with decent piety has little to fear from a standard kobold, but only the most pious can resist being sacced by a balor.

Priests and paladins might find things slightly different. Piety should be easier to gain for a start, and starting piety would be much higher. The names of the ranks would be different (things like bishop for priests). They may gain different powers or simply greater powers for each god.

Grey
03-15-2008, 08:02 AM
God damn this max post length! Or maybe I should just stop writing so bloody much...

Anyway, to finish off, here's an example of my idea for the full details of a god:

Vellius - God of War
Description: The 4-armed master of all combat
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All
Initially avilable to: All fighting classes, any born in Sword
Enemy gods: None
Increases piety: Killing monsters more powerful than self, attaining high levels of weapon mastery, commanding others to attack, improving combat skills
Decreases piety: Coward tactics (note - this would indirectly make this god more difficult for wizards), running from enemies, avoiding combat (eg wilderness encounters), using stealth
Rewards:-
Level 1 (Initiate) - +1 DV per 3 levels, +1 PV per 5 levels
Level 6 (Follower) - +3 HP per level, +1 to hit per 3 levels, +1 damage per 5 levels
Level 12 (Faithful) - +3 St, extra criticals
Level 18 (Devout) - +3 To, stun resistance
Level 24 (Disciple) - +3 Dx, paral resistance, possibly random artifact (equivalant to precrown)
Level 32 (Champion) - 15% of physical attacks deflected by god's will, special artifact weapon or armour
Level 40 (Messiah) - 20% of attacks made penetrate armour
Level 50 (Avatar) - Double attacks per round, random artifact (equivalent to postcrown)

Something like this could easily be drawn up for every god. Let me know what you guys think, and in particular how this compares to Stone Soup Dungeon Crawl.

theotherhiveking
03-15-2008, 04:41 PM
Okay, so here's a few ideas I've been having based on the suggestions in this thread...

In ADOM characters have various levels of piety. It's an integer amount, and can be positive or negative. Getting high piety is easy by direct sacrifice. Attaining certain levels can give bonuses or punishments. You can become champion by praying with enough piety, after which you are stuck to that general alignment. When crowned though you can still drop to low amounts of piety, and can still do all sorts of things that are against your god's teaching.

Overall this system is open to huge abuse. Alignment is changed easily through saccing small amounts of gold at altars, and after gaining rewards from the god there's little risk of losing them. The actions of the character have almost no bearing on the god - it's mostly about material sacrifice in fact. Huge amounts of gold are easily attained, even early game, allowing for rich rewards without any further maintenance.

In JADE the idea expressed in this thread is for a more complex system, with different gods the PC can choose to worship at his will. The PC would get different rewards and powers from each god, and this could heavily influence their abilities. One could choose to reinforce existing powers, or use a god different from one's class to make a more multi-tasking character. This would make religion a huge influence on the character, such that you could no longer just say you're a Candle-born trollish healer - you're now a Candle-born trollish healer of Celimbra - truly the ultimate in regeneration combos! In short your chosen deity becomes as important as your chosen class, and would add a wealth of depth to your character.

So, looking at religion as a class, how about we give it levels and class powers? Piety points would act like experience points, and ascending through the levels of piety would raise your powers in accordance with that god's speciality. Piety point requirements for levelling would raise exponentially, like xp does. At specific levels you could gain titles, and with these titles new powers. In-game you wouldn't see any points - you'd just see either the levels or the titles (perhaps only priests could see the exact levels). Dropping piety is possible, and if you reduce in level you lose all the higher level's powers. This could mean that praying in the heat of a difficult battle could weaken you greatly, so you have to balance the necessity carefully.

Ideas for titles:
- Level 1, Initiate. The usual starting point - a regular member of the church. Small bonuses, if any.
- Level 6, Follower. A more involved member of the religion, granted certain extra favours.
- Level 12, Faithful. A true believer in the ways of their god, given additional favour and more respect amongst normal church members.
- Level 18, Devout. One who's life has become more centred around the teachings of their faith, and whose continued service has given them special attention from their deity.
- Level 24, Disciple. One chosen and blessed by the god to follow their path closely, and given greater favour. It is not possible to get above Disciple status for more than one god.
- Level 30, Champion. A great force in his religion that worships their lord/lady fervently. He will be given great power to help further his god's wishes. Extremely high standing in the church. (Requires special quests.)
- Level 40, Messiah. The messenger of their god, endowed with divine powers to bring to fruition all their god's desires. (Requires very special quests.)
- Level 50, Avatar. The very face of their lord on Ancardia. All they do is a representation of their god's will, and civilisations will harken to their words. (Requires extreme quests on the order of slaying other gods, wiping out cities or species, etc.)

Gaining piety is a matter of pleasing your god. Direct sacrifice is possible, but can only gain you so much. It would not be possible to simply acquire huge hordes of gold to become the messiah of a religion. Some gods would frown upon material sacrifices or living sacrifices, others might value it highly but only if done in sufficient quantities. The real way to gain piety is to act in accordance of your religion, or complete religion-specific quests. Acting in accordance with religion means your day to day actions must match your god's philosophy. Casting powerful magic gains favour with Elisio, etc. Different actions would affect your piety by different amounts. Care would have to be taken to not allow simple grinding (though exponential increases in requirements should help with that). Some positions may be impossible to attain unless you complete a high-powered quest. Lesser gods will have lesser requirements, but lower rewards.

Losing piety happens gradually over time, though is usually countered by the PC's normal actions unless he severely neglects his religion. You can also lose piety through direct actions that are against your beliefs - some more serious than others. Killing dwarves won't make you popular with Morodwyn, and chopping down trees won't put you in Aerie's good books. Serving opposing deities can reduce your standing too. Getting a very negative rating with a deity may result in them trying to curse or punish you, or sending servants out to attack you, though having high standing with a different deity will protect you from most of this. This means that life would be more difficult for atheists who don't have this protection. Being a high member of a religion and then abandoning it could result in retribution.

You have standings with all deities at all times, but will not receive any positive effect from this unless you are actually a member (nor will you be able to see your position with that god unless you are a member). At the beginning of the game you can choose from different starting religions to belong to (possibly even choosing several) based on your race/class/starsign etc (see above). Encountering temples and altars through the game can allow you to sign up for more. However you might still gain the attention of gods without worshipping them - becoming high in their powers might even make them actively try to recruit you (and spurning them could lead to bad things...)

Rewards from gods will be based on that deity's specialisation. They would generally be on the same order as class powers and talents. Some rewards would be individual powers, like summoning elementals, others would be specific bonuses to stats and skills, others would be the likes of reduced spellcasting cost. Many would have their power based on your current piety level (eg. +5 HP per piety level, or +1% magic resistance for every 3 piety levels). Artifact rewards are possible at higher levels, but the reward would be based on the god, not your class (or possibly random). There would no longer be the traditional luck/fate smiles (though some gods might grant these). With some balancing in other areas this could make Fate Smiles a much rarer and more exclusive intrinsic (which I'd say is appropriate).

Characters can still pray to gods for aid, and usually will receive the same effects as in ADOM. HP/PP restoration, removal of dooming, etc. Piety is decreased by doing this, and certain levels of piety are needed to achieve certain things. Prayer costs increase through usage as in ADOM. Some gods will be cheaper for certain things than others. For instance Celimbra will be quick to heal, but Ssraxx is unlikely to remove dooming.

Altars can be randomly found in dungeons, but no longer are specific colours. Some may be exclusive to specific gods, and can be used to become an initiate in their faith, or converted to your own religion (if you're powerful enough). Most though would be generic, and you can sacrifice to any god at them. At high powers you can change a generic altar to one dedicated to one specific god (which would gain you piety with that god, but abuse others). When saccing at generics you would choose which of the religions you're a member of to sac to (simply pressing enter would result in saccing to your highest standing god - there would be a configuration variable to make this automatic for those that prefer). Potions can be blessed and items ided as per normal. You *can* be sacced by other creatures, and potentially any other creature around if it's a generic altar. However having a higher standing with a god will protect you from this. But if a creature is powerful it may have a higher standing with its own god to overcome this and sac you. Thus anyone with decent piety has little to fear from a standard kobold, but only the most pious can resist being sacced by a balor.

Priests and paladins might find things slightly different. Piety should be easier to gain for a start, and starting piety would be much higher. The names of the ranks would be different (things like bishop for priests). They may gain different powers or simply greater powers for each god.

I don't really like it. So, gods are grouped? you have to chose then one by one?, Its like stone soup only in the part where you can choose your god, tho, i liked the part where you can raise over champion.




Punishments from gods would include cursing and dooming, plaguing, summoning hostile creatures, energy bolting, cursing equipment, turning equipment to dust, killing companions (who may be less protected by your god), rains of acid/stone/fire, abusing stats, reducing DV, making more people hostile, reducing affection from NPCs who worship that god.
This is ok



[..]tying shoelaces together, etc.hHHAHHAHAhahahAHAHhA

Grey
03-15-2008, 05:18 PM
I don't really like it. So, gods are grouped? you have to chose then one by one?, Its like stone soup only in the part where you can choose your god, tho, i liked the part where you can raise over champion.

Grouped? No, I don't think I said anything about that. You have different gods you can worship - you can pray to several if you like. Nothing wrong with being a follower of both the Moon Goddess and Ayssia for instance. Some would be opposed to each other though, and you can only be a champion of one. Do you think a monotheistic system would be better, so you can only be devoted to one god at a time? What does Stone Soup do differently? I don't necessarily think JADE should copy stone soup wholesale, but it should be influenced by the best elements.

theotherhiveking
03-15-2008, 05:58 PM
Grouped? No, I don't think I said anything about that. You have different gods you can worship - you can pray to several if you like. Nothing wrong with being a follower of both the Moon Goddess and Ayssia for instance. Some would be opposed to each other though, and you can only be a champion of one. Do you think a monotheistic system would be better, so you can only be devoted to one god at a time? What does Stone Soup do differently? I don't necessarily think JADE should copy stone soup wholesale, but it should be influenced by the best elements.

No.

I mean that gods of the same alignment should be packaged together, For Example, Chaos, Death, Nature, Balance, War...

Having to worship and find each god in his own makes it too complex, because 1) you have to find the altar, 2) Its a mess as there no organisation 3) being a worshipper of both andor drakon and a good god is, while posible, a stupid way make it even more complex in a purely non necessary way, and are likely to end getting you character pwned by a god.

Grey
03-15-2008, 06:50 PM
Ah, I see what you mean... I hadn't thought about grouping gods together like that. Wouldn't work at all for the list I made above... Like I said, I was going for a Norse/Roman style of pantheon, where there aren't such clear allegiances.

Finding gods wouldn't be such a problem though, apart from the lesser ones (which I more added for flavour - these would be more of a challenge, whilst most players stick with the main gods). Most characters would start out with around 5 gods they have available due to their background (humans would probably have the most). The main gods would be easily found at any big city, with the most important being available at the first town in the game. Generic altars would be very common. Worship of numerous gods is not hugely advantageous, but it gives an extra edge. Because of piety being based on your actual activities it's easy to please related gods with the same actions, but each god is still a separate individual. Worshipping both a good and evil god is not possible (except for the three human gods) because of alignment restrictions on who can worship what god (see "Avaiable to" under each god).

I personally don't like grouping gods together like you say actually. Each should have their own distinct personality, and ones of the same type might still be unrelated to each other. Consider Lol'th, Mexiphal and Andor Drakon. They're all evil, they all appreciate a good bloodbath. Should you be able to sac to all three at once? No, because they're not related. One's a racial god, one's a general god of suffering, and one's the lord of the forces of chaos. They're all quite distinct, and potentially they're rivals. However, with what I suggested killing good people will still make all three happy. You could even make them jealous over your affection (well, not Andy - he'd likely just kill you. I included him as exotic god that you'd probably have to worship exclusively.)

Of course I don't know exactly how stone soup works - I'll really have to give it a go some time to get a feel. It could be that what I've suggested would work better in different ways - most importantly cutting down on the list of gods, I imagine.

theotherhiveking
03-15-2008, 07:11 PM
Ah, I see what you mean... I hadn't thought about grouping gods together like that. Wouldn't work at all for the list I made above... Like I said, I was going for a Norse/Roman style of pantheon, where there aren't such clear allegiances.

Finding gods wouldn't be such a problem though, apart from the lesser ones (which I more added for flavour - these would be more of a challenge, whilst most players stick with the main gods). Most characters would start out with around 5 gods they have available due to their background (humans would probably have the most). The main gods would be easily found at any big city, with the most important being available at the first town in the game. Generic altars would be very common. Worship of numerous gods is not hugely advantageous, but it gives an extra edge. Because of piety being based on your actual activities it's easy to please related gods with the same actions, but each god is still a separate individual. Worshipping both a good and evil god is not possible (except for the three human gods) because of alignment restrictions on who can worship what god (see "Avaiable to" under each god).

I personally don't like grouping gods together like you say actually. Each should have their own distinct personality, and ones of the same type might still be unrelated to each other. Consider Lol'th, Mexiphal and Andor Drakon. They're all evil, they all appreciate a good bloodbath. Should you be able to sac to all three at once? No, because they're not related. One's a racial god, one's a general god of suffering, and one's the lord of the forces of chaos. They're all quite distinct, and potentially they're rivals. However, with what I suggested killing good people will still make all three happy. You could even make them jealous over your affection (well, not Andy - he'd likely just kill you. I included him as exotic god that you'd probably have to worship exclusively.)

Of course I don't know exactly how stone soup works - I'll really have to give it a go some time to get a feel. It could be that what I've suggested would work better in different ways - most importantly cutting down on the list of gods, I imagine.


Actually I mean that gods grouped DO have a relation. And theres not alignment restriction, being a dark elf should not make you evil, that's up to the elf himself.

There are 2 scales.

1) Is the alignment one, Just the normal and common things that your gods like you to do. It provides very basic bonus, and is raised with normal actions.

I.E Death likes you to kill, so killing will raise this scale.

2) god specific, Each god has one, and is raises by doing not-that-common things, provides more advanced bonuses. But in a more limited scope.

I.E

Vellius - God of War
Description: God of the swordmastery and commanding
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All
Initially avilable to: All fighting classes, any born in Sword
Enemy gods: None
Increases piety: Killing monsters more powerful than self, attaining high levels of weapon mastery, commanding others to attack, improving combat skills
Decreases piety: Coward tactics (note - this would indirectly make this god more difficult for wizards), running from enemies, avoiding combat (eg wilderness encounters), using stealth

So killing monsters more powerful that self and having a high lvl ability with swords raises that god scale.

But killing monster less or equally powerful that self will not raise it, instead they will raise the alignment one.

Of couse this could be separated into more gods.

So if in the war alignment there are 5 gods, one likes swords, other spears, bows, axes or the other one mazes.

So mastering all of them is necessary to become the champion of the alignement.

Commaning raises vellius, defending friends (attacking the same monster) would raise other god.. etc

Grey
03-15-2008, 07:33 PM
Right, I see now - very interesting. Would make for a very different style of pantheon than I was thinking.

One thing I don't like about it though is that it feels very game-orientated. Where are the real gods that day to day people worship, like the Sun and Moon or the god of Music? They wouldn't fit into simple alignment scales. A god for swords, axes, spears, bows, etc sounds so artificial and generic. I like how it works, but in my eyes it would have to be crafted in such a way that it *looks* like real gods and you would still have these very individual personalities to deities.

And the racial gods would still stand out. I do believe they should have their own alignment - dark elves that turn good would be turning their back on both their race and their god. Same with dwarves that turn bad. And the racial gods shouldn't be simply lumped into the alignment scales of other class-based gods. They will have their own effects based on their own personalities, and will only be available to those of their race that follow their philosophy.

There's a lot of different ways these sorts of things could be implemented. Ultimately it might come down to which is easier to code ;)

With regards to tying shoelaces, I really think this is something the Joker god would do at times, especially in the heat of an important battle. You'd have to take your shoes off and put them on again, otherwise you'll trip when trying to move (wouldn't work on metal boots obviously).

theotherhiveking
03-15-2008, 07:47 PM
Right, I see now - very interesting. Would make for a very different style of pantheon than I was thinking.

One thing I don't like about it though is that it feels very game-orientated. Where are the real gods that day to day people worship, like the Sun and Moon or the god of Music? They wouldn't fit into simple alignment scales. A god for swords, axes, spears, bows, etc sounds so artificial and generic. I like how it works, but in my eyes it would have to be crafted in such a way that it *looks* like real gods and you would still have these very individual personalities to deities.

And the racial gods would still stand out. I do believe they should have their own alignment - dark elves that turn good would be turning their back on both their race and their god. Same with dwarves that turn bad. And the racial gods shouldn't be simply lumped into the alignment scales of other class-based gods. They will have their own effects based on their own personalities, and will only be available to those of their race that follow their philosophy.

There's a lot of different ways these sorts of things could be implemented. Ultimately it might come down to which is easier to code ;)

With regards to tying shoelaces, I really think this is something the Joker god would do at times, especially in the heat of an important battle. You'd have to take your shoes off and put them on again, otherwise you'll trip when trying to move (wouldn't work on metal boots obviously).


The fact is that there is NOT a god of swords, there is a god that likes people using swords, but not god of swords, in fact, each god has his own personality. If he likes swords and you use swords, he will like you more.

So, there isn't a god of anything specific , each god has is own powers, and tastes.

For example, the roman god artemisa, that godness uses a bow, she is not the godness of bows.

But if you have nice skill will bows, she will like you more, but is not needed to use a bow to please her, it just makes it easier, and if you use a bow very good, maybe her will enchant it to be more accurate, but theres a chance to that she does enchant your sword or armor, just it is more likely to happen with bows.

about the shoelaces.. first I thought it was a joke, but now is has a lot of sense, I didn't related it to that god.


Btw, what OS are you using right now?

Grey
03-15-2008, 08:14 PM
The fact is that there is NOT a god of swords, there is a god that likes people using swords, but not god of swords, in fact, each god has his own personality. If he likes swords and you use swords, he will like you more.

I see - the way you put it before made it sound a little different. If each god was thought out and planned well this could be very interesting.



about the shoelaces.. first I thought it was a joke, but now is has a lot of sense, I didn't related it to that god.Well, someone mentioned a chaotic god in stone soup that likes to poison PCs on low health etc. I imagine the Joker god as a less evil version of this, with some characteristic ADOM humour thrown into the mix.



Btw, what OS are you using right now?Er, WinXP. Why? Is this another attempt by Epythic to hack my PC...? :P

theotherhiveking
03-15-2008, 08:23 PM
Er, WinXP. Why? Is this another attempt by Epythic to hack my PC...? :P

Yes.. well, not.

If you were using linux you could do this

"ssh joshua@crawl.akrasiac.org" (ssh://crawl.akrasiac.org)

password: joshua

So you could play crawl without having to download it, but, in windows you have to download a ssh client, with weights a lot more than the game itself.



Well, someone mentioned a chaotic god in stone soup that likes to poison PCs on low health etc. I imagine the Joker god as a less evil version of this, with some characteristic ADOM humour thrown into the mix.

this reminds me to..

http://greyfire.org/~sigmund/?issue=1

Sradac
03-16-2008, 12:53 AM
Maybe put in temples for each god that can give specific quests for that diety, rewards could be a huge boost in piety and some kind of materialistic reward from the priests and monks there. On that note i think there should be specific locations for each class. The temple would give priests a place to go to learn spells\abilites\skills that they dont start with and only priests can learn, from priests. Kinda shine some light on some things, whenever I'd roll a necro in adom I would wonder, just HOW did this PC become a necro and where did he learn it? Some kinda sepulcher or necropolis or an old abandoned crypt with text and tomes about necromancy in there. I always thought the ToEF coulda been a really cool place for elementalists. Maybe give each class an "Epic" quest sorta like Everquest does it. Complete a huuuuge quest to get the Epic weapon armor robe, or whatever item it could be. It might not nececarily be the "most powerful" of its type but it should definatly have unique attributes not even an artifact could match. Maybe give wizards a wand that never runs out of charges but when it gets down to 0 it takes time to recharge, or a spell book that when read gives knowledge to a random spell and can only be read every x amount of turns to keep from scumming the book till you get 1000000 points in the wish spell. Staff of elemental mastery for an elementalist allows you to temporarily charm "elemental" type monsters for a short duration. Lots a cool stuff that could be done.

Dougy
03-17-2008, 12:12 AM
Does a PC have to please one and only one god? A display screen could come up selecting which god you wish to sacrifice to or pray to (for simplicity you should be able to select a default). You would have to learn in-game of each god.

- A list of gods and their properties could be randomly generated at the start of the game. Some gods could be fixed and always exist in the game.
- You learn of gods by visiting temples, reading tracts, fortune cookies, drunkards, etc. Maybe your parents told you about one god at birth (eg. priests should be stuck with that god).
- Every action you take will affect every god (whether or not you know about that god). You cannot please everyone.
- The PC is not crowned L/N/C but rather crowned "Champion of <god>," which may or may not require a certain L/N/C alignment. Crowning gifts would be god-dependant.

Epythic
03-17-2008, 08:40 PM
Yes.. well, not.

If you were using linux you could do this
"ssh joshua@crawl.akrasiac.org (ssh://crawl.akrasiac.org)"

A very handy thing, yes. For windows users, I recommend PuTTY (http://www.putty.org/).

The other advantage is that you can play from wherever you are.



So you could play crawl without having to download it, but, in windows you have to download a ssh client, with weights a lot more than the game itself.

Anyway, SSH client = standard software.



this reminds me to..

http://greyfire.org/~sigmund/?issue=1

Whoa!! Great!

Aerudaer
03-18-2008, 10:58 PM
Personally, I don't like it overly complex. Complexity is great, but at some point there is a decreasing rate of return to adding more. I would prefer a more involved system where you can only worship one at a time but there are many quests and levels of piety. I would also prefer only, say, 5 or 6, plus one per race. This would allow one or two per main archetype. A single one per race would act as a way to make race even more meaningful.

Qui
03-19-2008, 09:42 PM
I agree that gods should be more difficult to please. Now it's way too easy, an altar and a bit of patience is quite enough. I also agree that each god should be different, but let's not overdo the numbers. A generic god of war, why not, but a few of them, one liking swords and wine, other one axes and monkey brains, other one spears and blue color and dancing owlbears... That would be overdoing it.

I think gods should be divided into a few general categories:

Major gods
The general, well known deities. Probably a few of the generic war/wisdom/healing/etc, also those of the most common races if racial gods will be still present. They have so many followers that one more or one less doesn't matter much.

So it's easy to become a follower of one (altars in most cities), maybe get a (really) small blessing, but that's basically it. Leaving such god wouldn't have dire consequences (unless you're really devout long-term follower). Maybe he/she would send a pox-ridden beaver or something to show how little he/she cares.
On the other hand, getting somewhere with one of these would require a lot of time and effort. And danger of course. Becoming a champion would for sure require quite a few quests challenging even for a high-level PC and probably quite a lot of money to sacrifice. But it would be worth it. Blessings, great equipment, worldwide recognition (all priests and such swarming to help), etc.

Minor gods
These would be the racials of less common races or those of less common trades. Not that difficult to please, but much more jealous. Leaving one might upset him/her quite a lot, especially so if the PC switches allegiance to one of the major ones. In general, achieving mid-level piety would be easier than with major gods with similar effects. Becoming a champion, while still difficult, also should be much easier. On the other hand, benefits from this would be less impressive. Not so much/so good equipment, less powerful blessings, less recognition (and sometimes hostility).

Forgotten gods
Or whatever you call them. Somewhat mysterious pack. Could contain gods of long-gone races, ascended mortals, powerful astral creatures, or whatever the Creator comes up with. Hard to find, could be tricky to please, with results uncertain. They might make the PC as powerful as champions of major gods, or even more so, for less effort. Or they might just give him some worthless junk and tell him to go away. Or even curse him. Who knows?
The whole idea of these is to provide some excitement and uncertainty which is absent from the major and minor religions. Just imagine finding a deserted altar of an unknown entity somewhere in middle of nowhere. Should the PC try to please that entity or quickly run away? What would it like? What would it want? (well, some kind of communication would be needed... some mysterious scrolls maybe or suchlike) Is it worth abandoning the god you serve now? Possibilities are endless.

deepshock
03-19-2008, 11:23 PM
I wonder what chosen prayer options would be like. Rather than a tier, you'd be able to type them out like wishes, or choose a letter from a list. Piety costs would be represented by how "Major" the prayer is. Ex: Full heal would be "Moderate", removing dooming would be "Extreme", curing stunning would be "Minor".

BenMathiesen
03-20-2008, 11:43 PM
Very interesting discussion, this. Grey, you've got some excellent ideas--I really like the concept of hidden gods.

Just a minor note: I've always felt that racial gods are overkill--for ADOM, you almost double the number.

If it were my game, I would just each god an array of names (one for each race) and racial preferences (kind of like shopkeepers).

But it's Thomas' game, and the choice depends on the world's larger backstory!

Cheers,
Ben

Dougy
03-21-2008, 12:18 AM
I personally feel that the gods should have some random flavour to them. The interesting thing is that you would need to find out about your god in game. I.e. you won't know what (s)he likes until you try it, or read about it in a tract.

Finding an alter of your god is not a problem, since altars can be converted. Finding out about some gods should be challanging and the PC would have to delay crowning. Other gods should be easy to find out about (with lesser rewards). Worshipping some gods will annoy other gods, i.e. if you worship a chaos god it would annoy a god of order.

For example:

god A
- fond of animals and does not like you killing or sacrificing them, while healing them makes him/her happy
- very pleased when you kill/sacrifice chaotic or evil creatures, not too excited about neutral and does not like you killing/saccing good creatures
- enjoys it when you use fire magic, via a spell, wand or weapon
god B
- likes it when you steal from a thief, slay a slayer, etc.
- likes the use of confusion, stun, death ray, etc.
- enjoys it when you kill any moster by indirect means, eg. traps, pets, etc.
- enjoys sacrifices of every creature

IronJelly
02-05-2010, 12:14 AM
I had a weird thought today about racial gods.

What if there are racial gods for all the playable races (and maybe some not playable ones), but they are all demented, and work to turn you into a member of their race if you worship them. It starts out easy enough as species X (you), worshipping the god of species Y. After some worship, the beneficial traits of species Y start appearing within you (ie, a worshipper of the dwarf god is going to be tougher and hairier than other members of his species), but eventually, once that is maxed, late enough into the game to prevent doing it more than once, your born traits start to disappear, and you eventually find yourself more species Y than species X, much to the sorrow of your own species and their god.

Ok, no more smoking for me. carry on your previous conversation.

Cash
02-05-2010, 02:54 PM
I had a weird thought today about racial gods.

What if there are racial gods for all the playable races (and maybe some not playable ones), but they are all demented, and work to turn you into a member of their race if you worship them. It starts out easy enough as species X (you), worshipping the god of species Y. After some worship, the beneficial traits of species Y start appearing within you (ie, a worshipper of the dwarf god is going to be tougher and hairier than other members of his species), but eventually, once that is maxed, late enough into the game to prevent doing it more than once, your born traits start to disappear, and you eventually find yourself more species Y than species X, much to the sorrow of your own species and their god.

Ok, no more smoking for me. carry on your previous conversation.

that would be a neat way to obtain a hybrid character

Deinos
06-23-2010, 09:44 PM
Going to a simple good/evil system is an awful idea in a role-playing game..

Actually, its just that you got 5 alignments instead of 9... in practice, NG/CG, LN/N/CN, and LE/NE all pretty much behave in an identical fashion, and so deserve to be combined.

My favorite god from Dungeon Crawl is Jiyva Jerphe, god of the slime pits... worshiping him is like playing bizarro ADOM. He makes slime creatures and eyeball monsters and such nonhostile, and feeding them items is how you perform sacrifices. But why I say its bizarro ADOM, is that he gives distinct mutations of his own of a slimy/chaotic nature, including the good ole "Covered in eyeballs" type thing. He can likewise send jellies to help you fight, or to turn enemies into such, as well as removing bad mutations.

CloudKing
12-15-2011, 01:56 AM
this was already mentioned before but I agree with whoever said that it would be nice to have a lot more interactions with the gods.....like for example doing quests or slaying the enemys of that diety....also the ability to visit the home realm of a deity would be quite nice......a lawful god might ask his champion to slay the high priests of an evil deity...or invite him join his side in combat as he attempts to assault a rival deity....or ask him to lead his armies into battle...