don't mess with cat lord

i was reminded recently why you do not mess with cat lord. i had awesome human pally. crowned with Justifier, and with Serpent's bite in second hand was destroying everything in his path. with about 40 str he one-shoted ACW in ToEF (my first ever character who managed this). so when i was facing kitty lord i was pretty confident. i even disabled that damn cat. he was severly wounded with human slaying missiles. so when i ran out of those nice missiles i decided to finish him in melee. turns out it was no me finishing. you miss the invisible cat lord, you miss the invisible cat lord. cat lord hits you gazillion times. you die. i hate this bastard. and overconfidence when your character is getting really awesome ;-)

Dual-wielding against the cat lord is a rather bad idea :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey

Dual-wielding is a rather bad idea :/

Fixed that for you.

Emphasis being, of course, on the "rather". Mostly, you can smash apart monsters however you feel like it. I have a hard time thinking of cases in which dual-wielding is the mathematically best option. I think only two might exist at all:

a) Early game Ranger (they sometimes hit much better, thanks to their innate bonus, if they wield two weapons, provided the off-hand weapon is light enough)
b) Needle & Sting (which no one cares about, or better, should care about)

Even if you don't actually own a shield and would have to leave the second hand free, there is the benefit of usually higher to-hit chances, the ability to use the more powerful weapon more often and most importantly shorter intervals between actions (1 attack for 700 energy points, to me, is superior to 2 attacks for 1200 or even 1100 for that reason alone. ESPECIALLY if the one attack is Justifier). In a game in which much of a character's power lies in the ability to carry and immediately use obscene amounts of items and switch between tactics or means of attack in instant, the damage-per-energy-point value would have to be quite a bit superior!

If you do have a shield, there's no excuse. To counter all that DV you miss out on, you would need a truly obscene difference in damage. Only Needle & Sting with their dual-wield-exclusive damage and to-hit bonus provide anything close to it. Even then, it's debatable.

The only real question is, of course, why I felt the need to write this lecture on why dual-wielding is terrible right at this moment. I think it might have to do with a lack of ADOM-related flamewars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silfir

The only real question is, of course, why I felt the need to write this lecture on why dual-wielding is terrible right at this moment. I think it might have to do with a lack of ADOM-related flamewars.

Ok.. I will contradict you for the sake of it, then. :p

I think more people should try dual wielding, actually. It is fun and it is viable. I know because I tried.

Will spam more crap here later, dinner is ready. Oh and to the OP, sorry for your loss, the cat lord is a real bastard.

"Fun"? "Viable"? Now who in their right mind would care about that? It doesn't really contradict "It's a bad idea" either. Some of the most fun ideas in the history of ideas have been exceptionally bad, and pretty much any way to play ADOM is "viable", except perhaps playing without the arrow keys. If it weren't for moving to the Tower and back, you could probably take one of the four directions away; like, never use the numpad or arrow keys related to 3, 6 and 9 (east). If you restrict it to dungeons only, it's probably doable, actually. Get some teleport and you should be fine (not that you could move the teleport cursor to the right, but random teleporting is allowed). Does ":s" ask for a prompt if there is only one creature to switch places with? I sort of lost track now. Where am I? What day is it? I like pudding.

Ok, I will put it sharper. Dual wielding is crazy powerful and can shoot your damage output through the roof. I found you need to take care of two things, basically:

1. In the beginning of the game, your low DV will mean you need to play extra careful (later on, better equipment and weapon skills largely compensate).
2. Raise your dual wielding skill to 100 as fast as you can.

If you follow those two guidelines, I found that dual wielding makes you a killing machine in the mid to late game.

You mentioned high energy cost. Compare it to mighty blow and tremendous blow.. those are regarded as good skills, right?

As for lack of shield.. if two handed weapons like vanquisher, the cow axe, wyrmlance and the RCT are seen as good, that must mean that giving up a shield can be good.

Dual wielding is viable, but against high speed enemies like the cat lord and casino shopkeeper it's just suicide.

Nothing says flame war like replying to individual points with the already firm intention not to give in to points even if you know, on some level, you should. Of course, that excludes this post, because I know I am right and my arguments are irrefutable, though no doubt you will attempt to prove the opposite. Also you're a n00b faggot.

1. I am pretty sure you can become a killing machine in a multitude of ways, if you optimize, and know a thing or two about the game. As far as I can see, you had no rules about only using terrible daggers and shamelessly employed eternium weaponry. Add to that Grand Mastery in daggers or wherever you ended up, and of course things die. It says dual-wielding is viable, not that it is a good idea.

2. Mighty blow and tremendous blow are awesome because they are additions to your tactical arsenal you can employ in certain, limited circumstances: Huge damage blows that blow past PV. And yes, I think they are a bonus to the Barbarian class and I do use them, but it's very rare situations and I'm always apprehensive about it. Hocus Pocus at least has never used a single mighty blow and unless she absolutely has to, it will stay that way. I cannot imagine a strategic situation, save for the two I already listed, in which I would conclude that dual-wielding is the correct choice. This assuming, of course, that there is such a thing as "correctness" when playing ADOM, which for the purposes of this flamewar I shall staunchly proclaim.

3. Giving up a shield can be good, depending on what you exchange for it. Vanquisher, axe of the minotaur emperor, Wyrmlance and the rune-covered trident are worth using even if you need to forgo the shield in exchange because they offer something in exchange. In the case of Vanquisher, Wyrmlance and the rune-covered trident, it can be summed up with the word "slaying". Vanquisher slays almost everything, and is a suboptimal choice in the rare case it doesn't, or there is an option available that is better still. Wyrmlance slays dragons, and can only be considered an optimal choice in any scenario that involves beating the crap out of dragons. Similar things can be said about the rune-covered trident. The axe of the minotaur emperor I have never owned, but I gather the reasons given for its endorsement boil down to "ASSFUCKS of damage, also more crits" and thus it will be a good choice in any case that involves the dealing of melee damage. I could go on but I won't, since it's missing the point, which is that since shields provide such perverted amounts of defensive value, greatly enhancing your durability in combat, there has to be a clear benefit involved if you are planning to justify forgoing their use.

In the end, ignoring the issue of being able to act more frequently, you have to weigh the strategic or tactical value of your shield against the strategic or tactical value of your off-hand weapon. Similarly, you have to weigh the value of the off-hand weapon against the value of your main hand weapon. If your off-hand weapon is significantly inferior to the main hand weapon, you are lowering the frequency of your main hand attacks and actually actively lowering your damage per energy point ratio: you would be better off leaving the off hand empty! Even if your off-hand weapon is close enough to the main-hand weapon that you are gaining in damage potential, that same potential still has to beat out shield DV! The only exception to this math are Needle & Sting thanks to the completely bonkers to-hit and damage bonus that is dual-wield exclusive.

This is also where the OP so regrettably erred; gaining little in power - in fact, I sorely suspect, diminishing it - by pairing the absolutely ludicrous Justifier with the paltry Serpent's Bite, in its own right a worthy main hand weapon, but utterly marginalized by its companion. In the same action, he increased the number of attacks the cat lord would get in during melee combat until he would be able to react. The most crucial error, of course, was to accede to a melee fight to begin with when the battle could have won entirely from a distance, to no personal risk; but the same bout of overconfidence would have been of little consequence had he been using Justifier paired with even the most average of shields, or even an empty hand.

I apologize for getting increasingly verbose through the course of this treatise; I am mentally preparing for what is soon going to devolve into a fit of procrastination in the face of expanding on my recent exploits in fiction writing. I also feel a slight peckishness for circular-shaped comestibles prepared according to traditional Italian (or US-American, as the case may be) cuisine, and shall endeavour to satisfy it forthwith.

A flamewar? Ha!

No one can beat my flames! :-P

Too many words have been squandered already. I shall avenge the cat-lord and shred him in melee while dual wielding.

Scootaloo! Scootalooooo!

Hooray for part 2 tomorrow!

This is just sad. Too few people use double wielding already. It doesn't need further discouragement.

Oh, that idea I spoke about? Who? Oh, er, right.

Code:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Screenshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ######### ######### #.*.....# #.......# #.......# ###################################.......# #...>...# ....||||///|.|/...}.............../.......# #.......### #########.....###.#######.#########.......# #......./.# #.....# #...# #...# #.......# #/#######.# #.....# ###/#######.# ######### #.# #*# #.....# #.......# #.# ###/### ###/##### ########### ####### #.......# #.####### ####### #.....# #.......# #.........# #.......# #.......# ....... #...<.# #.......#######......f..# #.......# #######.###.......# #.....# #......./............@..# #.......# #...+.......# ####### #.......#######.........#################.......# #####.......# #.......# #........./[..............+.......# ....... ######### ################################### ####### Bashy St:42 Le: 5 Wi:15 Dx:14 To:29 Ch:32 Ap:10 Ma: 4 Pe:14 L+ DV/PV: 12/46 H: -4(415) P: 14(14) Exp: 23/2084452 D: 35 Sp: 118 Blessed Berserk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Background Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Bashy Race: male Orc Class: Barbarian Eye color: black Hair color: brown Complexion: gray Height: 6'2" Weight: 182 pounds Scars: 1 Age: 13 (young) Star sign: Raven Birthday: 30/Raven (day 30 of the year) YOUR HISTORY: Your father was an accomplished hunter and warrior. You were well-respected and comparatively wealthy. As a child you were very active and imitated the hunters and warriors of your tribe at all opportunities. During your youth you traveled to nearby tribes and traded with them. You met many strangers and learned a lot about the outside world. As a young adult you more and more separated from the more traditional members of your tribe. Your desire to see the outside world became overwhelming. At the age of 13 you left your tribe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Inventory ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total weight: 3692 stones Carrying capacity: 8475 stones Head : uncursed crown of leadership [+2, +7] {Ch+18} [65s] Neck : uncursed ankh [3s] Body : uncursed eternium plate mail (-1, -2) [-1, +12] [240s] Girdle : uncursed eternium girdle [+0, +4] [12s] Cloak : blessed cloak of protection [+0, +3] [20s] Right Hand : blessed rustproof orcish knife of devastation (+0, 5d3+8) Left Hand : blessed dagger of death (+1, 5d5+2) [10s] Right Ring : uncursed ring of slaying (+6 melee damage, +6 missile damage) Left Ring : uncursed ring of slaying (+6 melee damage, +6 missile damage) Bracers : uncursed bracers of regeneration [+0, +0] [18s] Gauntlets : uncursed elemental gauntlets (-1, +0) [+0, +3] [10s] Boots : uncursed eternium boots [+0, +5] [55s] Missile weapon: uncursed heavy crossbow of accuracy (+9, +2) [140s] Missiles : bundle of 13 uncursed quarrels (+2, 2d6) [26s] Tool : uncursed Chaos Orb of Elemental Fire {St+10} [100s] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Skills ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Athletics ................100 (superb) [+2d4] Backstabbing .............100 (superb) [+2d4] Bridge building .......... 12 (mediocre) [+3d5] (mr) Climbing ................. 87 (great) [+2d4] Courage .................. 82 (great) [+3d3] Dodge .................... 98 (superb) [+2d4] Find weakness ............100 (superb) [+1d5] First aid ................ 62 (good) [+3d3] Haggling ................. 26 (mediocre) [+3d3] Healing .................. 98 (superb) [+3d5] Herbalism ................ 36 (fair) [+4d4] Listening ................ 85 (great) [+3d5] Literacy ................. 68 (good) [+1] Metallurgy ............... 9 (poor) [+4d5] Mining ................... 32 (fair) [+3d4] Stealth .................. 95 (superb) [+2d4] Survival ................. 50 (fair) [+4d4] Swimming ................. 56 (good) [+3d5] Tactics .................. 18 (mediocre) [+3d4] Two weapon combat ........ 99 (superb) [+1d5] Woodcraft ................ 10 (poor) [+4d5] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spells ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darkness: 15, 7pp (Effectivity: +0) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Effects of Corruption ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have grown thorns (3d3 melee damage, Dx: -2, Ap: -3). Your corrupted tissue seems to heal much faster. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- His achievements during his adventures: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bashy, the orcish barbarian, was killed by the invisible cat lord. He scored 594462 points and advanced to level 23. He survived for 0 years, 59 days, 9 hours, 6 minutes and 11 seconds (47438 turns). Bashy visited 84 places. His strength score was modified by +4 during his career. His learning score was modified by +2 during his career. His willpower score was modified by +1 during his career. His dexterity score was modified by +2 during his career. His toughness score was modified by +4 during his career. His charisma score was modified by +5 during his career. His appearance score was modified by +6 during his career. His mana score was modified by +2 during his career. His perception score was modified by +1 during his career. He was the champion of the arena. He made a little water dragon very happy. He brought back joy into the life of a tiny girl. He saved Khelavaster from certain death. He ended his adventuring life on level 35 of the caverns of chaos. 3012 monsters perished under his attacks. The following 18 artifacts were generated during his adventure: the si the scythe of corruption "Moon Sickle" the potion of literacy the golden gladius "Death's Sting" the Chaos Orb of Elemental Water the Chaos Orb of Elemental Air the Chaos Orb of Elemental Fire the Chaos Orb of Elemental Earth the rune-covered trident the elemental gauntlets the ring of the High Kings the crown of science the ancient mummy wrapping the ankh the rune-covered club "Skullcrusher" the jet-black battle axe "Executor" the crown of leadership the rune-covered halberd "Wyrmlance" He possessed the following intrinsics: He was fire resistant (gained through an item). He was poison resistant (enhanced through an item). He was cold resistant (enhanced through an item). He was acid resistant. He was lucky (enhanced through an item). Fate smiled upon him (enhanced through an item). He was shock resistant (gained through an item). He was able to see invisible things (gained through an item). He was immune to shock attacks. He was immune to acidic attacks. He was able to resist confusion attacks (gained through an item). He had the following talents: Alert, Hardy, Iron Skin, Miser, Steel Skin, Tough Skin, Treasure Hunter, Very Hardy. He had a final speed score of 118 (final base speed: 118). He was a paragon of his religion. He asked for 3 divine interventions. He was a holy champion of Order. He was tainted by Chaos.

Well, you were only level 23 and you weren't using Executor. What did you expect would happen?

It might have been possible if you dual wielded Executor and Skullcrusher.

This thread is fun, popcorn is so good
dual wielding, son, gives for thought some food
Once there was assassin's tale
went through UD like a gale
found skullcrusher and serpent's bite
with them rushed to slash and smite
dual power in bandit's town
against Hotzy, like a clown,
missed him once and missed him twice
bleeding and poisoned wasn't nice
the assassin died in vain,
dual wielding is a pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blasphemous

This thread is fun, popcorn is so good
dual wielding, son, gives for thought some food
Once there was assassin's tale
went through UD like a gale
found skullcrusher and serpent's bite
with them rushed to slash and smite
dual power in bandit's town
against Hotzy, like a clown,
missed him once and missed him twice
bleeding and poisoned wasn't nice
the assassin died in vain,
dual wielding is a pain.

Upvoting. Should be added to ministrel songs.

One advantage dual wielding does have is that if you kill the monster on your second hit, the monster didn't get a chance to act in between your swings, either. But I admit this is not enough to make up for the drawbacks. Still, dual wielding phase daggers or bloody daggers can work quite nicely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silfir

I apologize for getting increasingly verbose through the course of this treatise; I am mentally preparing for what is soon going to devolve into a fit of procrastination in the face of expanding on my recent exploits in fiction writing.

Did you get around to writing any fiction, in the end?

Quote:

Originally Posted by grobblewobble

Did you get around to writing any fiction, in the end?

He meant his posts here - pure fiction, I'd say.

:D

The first time I had to tackle a hostile cat lord, he genuinely scared me. Reading that he's tough and fast in spoilers is one thing, but seeing by myself how he crits like a wrecking ball and has no trouble catching up with you (so you can't run away) is another. I won that battle thanks to webs and stunning, but there were many close calls.

Nice poem, Blasphemous! :)

Yeah, the cat lord is no joke. He's really hard, one of the most challenging moments of an ADOM game. I have lost more than one char to him, and had several close calls. That's one of the reasons why I always try to do the cat quest. I'd rather lose two or three chars in the early game to running from cats, than lose one to the cat lord.

Mind you, I seldom actually fulfill the quest. When I don't kill a cat due to a typo, a trap or an out-of-LOS bolt, I tend to forget to get the wand of teleport and get one in the arean.

Kitty ate my recent lvl 30 grey elven wizard for breakfast. I just could not outrun it, he crashed doors right after I locked them and gained on me sooo fast. I managed to blind him TWICE but in 5-6 turns, he regained sight and went after me again.
I'd have ran away if the whole length of the level wasn't between me and staircase. Down staircase wasn't visible of course.

Good to hear.

THIS is why I just quit if I kill a cat...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathwind

THIS is why I just quit if I kill a cat...

A bit unnecessary in my opinion. Yeah, the cat lord can kill anyone easily, but quite often you can just go around. He might be somewhere completely out of the way, you can detect where he is and dig your way around, you can slow him down with webs if he's chasing you. And I've never tried, but probably potions of confusion / blindness / Phial of Caladriel works too, if you let him next to you? I remember getting the ring only once, but have been past the level many times. Sure, if you go in "ugh, where me stair?", you're in trouble. : )

Well, I've never killed the cat lord and he's never killed me. So, we are still on equal footing.

Reason for post is mostly, why can we have so many more powerful artifacts return, but not the phial? Is its effect so powerful? It only affect living humanoids, not?

I don't know who you can and cannot affect with the thing, but a guaranteed and safe way to keep the cat lord, Fistanarius or Nuurag-Vaarn out of the fight indefinitely seems quite powerful. Maybe it would be interesting if it behaved like a normal missile and returned. So maybe you had to throw it many times to blind someone. It does hit always currently doesn't it?

On the other, say, Long Sting doesn't return and it is arguably a lot less useful to begin with, not being a guaranteed artifact. Unless this was changed, but I couldn't find an RFE or changelog for that.

I think, if you are well prepared, your chances against the cat lord are quite good. Of course, if he starts right next to you, you might be in trouble, but then you could still climb up the stairs again and teleport away. Otherwise moster detection and web are your best frinds, poison or slayers to finish him off... I rarely died to him and I am already looking forward to an exciting fight on my current run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singbird

I don't know who you can and cannot affect with the thing, but a guaranteed and safe way to keep the cat lord, Fistanarius or Nuurag-Vaarn out of the fight indefinitely seems quite powerful. Maybe it would be interesting if it behaved like a normal missile and returned. So maybe you had to throw it many times to blind someone. It does hit always currently doesn't it?

On the other, say, Long Sting doesn't return and it is arguably a lot less useful to begin with, not being a guaranteed artifact. Unless this was changed, but I couldn't find an RFE or changelog for that.

Isn't all the 'new' bosses immune to blindness, can't remember, I'll test against them anyway over the weekend with my current char. I would like if dopplegangers atleast deflected it, as I feel they should able to. Also maybe other 'alert' NPC to dodge or close their eyes in time to balance a returning phial.

There is atleast two guaranteed artifacts that return and a few not guaranteed and most of them can slay most monsters in one hit anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stingray1

Isn't all the 'new' bosses immune to blindness, can't remember, I'll test against them anyway over the weekend with my current char. I would like if dopplegangers atleast deflected it, as I feel they should able to. Also maybe other 'alert' NPC to dodge or close their eyes in time to balance a returning phial.

There is atleast two guaranteed artifacts that return and a few not guaranteed and most of them can slay most monsters in one hit anyway.

I don't know about new bosses, since sadly I don't have access to newer prereleases. But if bosses nowadays are immune to blindness, then yeah why couldn't it return. I don't like the idea of making bosses immune to blindness. It seems sort of a cheap way out. Next they make wands of destruction destruct when used on the levers. : P

Who knows, the handles can only be detructed in the 'closed' position, many weird things in Ancardia.

I'm not confirming that all the bosses are immune. I haven't tried to use the blinding tactic on all of them recently, but I think chances are good. I'll check anyway over weekend, I hope. :)

I believe that the only bosses that have gained extra immunities are the orb guardians and Andor, and they are definitely not all immune to blindness. My recollection was that the idea would be that each boss would pick up a few (different) immunities, but not all of them. Other bosses such as cat lord, MaLaKaI, ancient blue dragon, minotaur emperor, are unchanged AFAIK.

Phial returning would be ridiculously overpowered, IMHO.

Most of the bosses can still be blinded, including orb guardians. So, it's still very easy to disable them in that way.

*you animate the corpse of the thread*

I'm sure it's been done plenty of times already, but just to settle grobble's quest (and for bragging rights, obvs):

My ratling ranger just slaughtered the cat lord in a fair fight, in melee, dualwielding. Actually it wasn't really fair because he was invisible. What really surprised me was that I could have done it without healing (I healed once when I was down to ~250 HP, but only got hit for another 50 or so after that).

Funny part is, I had been intending to lure him off the level. I knew he was at the end of a long corridor, so slowly stepped down it planning to shoot him and retreat as soon as I saw him. Which might have worked, but I sort of forgot he's invisible (always had -seeI before I suppose). So suddenly "you feel some motions in your vicinity". Only source of see invisible was AMW, didn't fancy getting my kit off with Tibbles standing next to me. Ah well - berserk, 8 rounds later one dead cat lord and 150k xp in the bank.

From memory relevant stats were (didn't make a vlg but currently saved only a minute later):
Level 31, DV/PV: 27/45, HP: 535, Speed: 187
RH: Kinslayer, +135 to hit, 4d5+70 damage
LH: Adamantium scimitar of mayhem, +130 to hit, 3d8+80 damage
attack energy cost: 1060 (level 13)

Summary: perfectly doable if you're really fast and have mastery in your chosen weapon. As long as I stayed still, I would get a free round in against him every 4-5 turns.

Couple of things I noticed / questions: I seemed to get hit surprisingly infrequently, compared to what I expect from the cat lord. Does the Dodge skill or speed affect this other than through DV (which is abysmal). I noticed this fighting ancient dragons too, which are usually very accurate.
Also, do you get a to-hit penalty attacking invisible foes? Almost every turn I'd miss with at least one of my attacks, despite +130s to-hit and the cat lord's ~65 DV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexyBoy

My ratling ranger just slaughtered the cat lord in a fair fight, in melee, dualwielding.

From memory relevant stats were (didn't make a vlg but currently saved only a minute later):
Level 31, DV/PV: 27/45, HP: 535, Speed: 187
RH: Kinslayer, +135 to hit, 4d5+70 damage
LH: Adamantium scimitar of mayhem, +130 to hit, 3d8+80 damage
attack energy cost: 1060 (level 13)

Summary: perfectly doable if you're really fast and have mastery in your chosen weapon.

Riiiiight.

I *did say* that speed is important. I was really surprised at how easy it was – I'm sure it would have been possible even if putting out significantly less damage, you’d just have to heal more. Ditto on the HP, though below 400 would be very risky I think, you’d have to spend a lot of turns healing. It’s probably true that I got an unusually weak cat lord though.

>500 HP is pretty high for this point in the game I admit (when I first passed him I had ~450, came back 1 or 2 levels later), but it's still only about half what he has, hardly unfair.

If the cat lord blind rages things can get ugly, I don't think he did in your case?

I wasn't too worried as (1) IIRC blind rage has been toned down considerably in recent prereleases* and (2) most turns he'd do between 0 and ~80 damage, so even with double attacks he'd be lucky to crit me to death. Of course, he's a lucky bastard so who knows, maybe the RNG just thought I deserved a break.

*Though looking at the RFE it would appear that the cat lord could still get up to 6 attacks in, more likely just one extra though.