[Interface] By default, try to switch positions with friendly monsters - ADOM & Ultimate ADOM Forums

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[Interface] By default, try to switch positions with friendly monsters

11-09-2012 11:11 AM

b0rsuk

Junior Member

Number of reported issues by b0rsuk: 5

[Interface] By default, try to switch positions with friendly monsters

I'm currently playing a druid. Druids pacify all levels by default, and if a worm appear you quickly end up with a level full of these beings. If you don't want to end up chaotic, you must constantly switch positions with worms - :s . You would think a player would be happy for having dozens of non-hostile monsters around !

This is a lot of typing and makes travelling through worm-infested corridors a terrible experience.

At the very least, I should be able to simply displace friendly monsters by moving into them. Even better, make it possible to use 'long walk' commands (w-direction) to travel through worm fields. Wands of door creation help, but they're absent in my game and that doesn't fix the fundamental interface problem. Attacking a non-hostile monster is rare enough that it can have a separate key. "Lusting for blood" can be a special case if you want to make your interface bad.

(For example Crawl has * for attacks, and it allows you to "force attack" on a square, even swing weapon in the air. It is useful when you want to hit an invisible monster but hold your ground. If you use that key to attack, you will attack an invisible monster if it's on the suspected square but you will not move forward if it's empty.)

Issue Details

Issue Number 1333

Issue Type Feature

Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)

Category Linux

Status Suggested

Priority Unknown

Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 5

Implemented Version (none)

Milestone (none)

Votes for this feature 15

Votes against this feature 1

Attachments 0

Assigned Users (none)

Tags (none)

11-09-2012 12:13 PM

anon123

Ancient Member

You also can't switch places with unique NPCs, even if nonhostile. Never understood why.

11-09-2012 12:23 PM

b0rsuk

Junior Member

anon123: It's probably easier this way instead of remembering about position switch each time you create an NPC. There are shopkeepers, Ancient Blue Wyrm, Eternal Guardian, Thrundarr...

I noticed I can't switch with the Darkforge owner, and I thought it's interesting and intentional. He's not a nice kind of person.

11-09-2012 12:24 PM

Alucard

Senior Member

Sage has this feature, and is one of the best parts. You can attack nonhostiles with kicks or missiles or spells.

11-09-2012 12:45 PM

Aielyn

Senior Member

How about simply adding a third choice when the PC moves into a non-hostile creature? So you're asked if you want to attack, and you have three choices - yes, no, and switch. If switch is "s", then it removes one keystroke per move, which means that rather than having to cycle between colon, s, and move, you just alternate move and s, which should dramatically simplify the process of moving, since alternating is easier than cycling.

I'd rather this over having to manually instruct the game to attack, despite it being the less frequent act. It may be less frequent, but the standard in the game is to attack by moving into things.

anon123 - probably because a number of them are positioned in important places - Thrundarr is on a lever, the AKW is next to the stairs, etc.

11-09-2012 01:26 PM

Kyreles

Senior Member

I figured it was because they don't typically move outside of their "zone" and they don't want you to lead them around (Jharod in the WDC, dragging the old crone around to do an Ultra Platinum, etc). We have found ways around this (using a pet to make them non-hostile again), but I think that must have been what he was trying to prevent.

I do agree that the auto-switching feature of sage is helpful and would love for it to be added to the game.

11-09-2012 01:31 PM

anon123

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by b0rsuk

anon123: It's probably easier this way instead of remembering about position switch each time you create an NPC. There are shopkeepers, Ancient Blue Wyrm, Eternal Guardian, Thrundarr...

Shopkeepers aren't unique, but you can't change places with them. My wording wasn't the best, I was thinking "why must all uniques be impossible to switch when only some warrant that". Unique NPCs that should stay put could have the same behavior as shoppies, being unswitchable because they must specifically be. And there could be special messages instead of the generic "-foo- resists".

Anyway, I like the suggestion!

11-09-2012 02:30 PM

SirTheta

Ancient Member

Adding another option to the attack dialog doesn't help anything. It is extremely rare that you want to attack a non-hostile when moving into them. I agree that having a separate key to force attack, and the standard to be switching with them, would be a far, far better solution.

P.S. this will also lead to more delightful deaths as characters switch with a fed demented ratling :D

11-10-2012 03:37 PM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

A special attack button for backstabbing neutrals is a great idea.

In addition to a mode where you switch with all neutral monsters when moving into them, I think it would be great if there would be a mode where you do not switch but do not attack either. In fact such a mode already exists, but you have to wear 2 shields. I'd like to have it as a special walking mode instead.

The reason this is needed is that some neutrals (notably dwarftown) sometimes take offense at being switched around and become hostile. Which is annoying in case of a dwarf, because you can easily make the whole town hostile by accident. And deadly in the case of a well fed ratling, as SirTheta said.

11-12-2012 12:03 AM

9876098

Member

Mapping the "0" key to the switch with monster command in the adom.kbd file makes travel through seas of worms almost effortless.

11-13-2012 10:52 AM

Grey

Ancient Member

One could integrate it with the tactics settings - on defensive or lower it presumes you want to switch, on anything higher it asks if you want to attack. On true berserk obviously it just attacks :)

12-08-2012 03:28 PM

adom-admin adom-admin is offline

The Creator

Originally Posted by anon123

You also can't switch places with unique NPCs, even if nonhostile. Never understood why.

Because some non-hostile unique NPCs actually block passageways :-) That part is intentional. Although I admit that another option would be to flag such unique NPCs specifically... if I just could remember the ones concerned by this ;-)

12-08-2012 03:31 PM

adom-admin adom-admin is offline

The Creator

Originally Posted by Grey

One could integrate it with the tactics settings - on defensive or lower it presumes you want to switch, on anything higher it asks if you want to attack. On true berserk obviously it just attacks :)

Very interesting. I actually like this one. Please some more comments on this one.

I also could imagine a special attack key and default switching... but I also dislike the idea of a separate "attack command" as moving into opponents for attacks actually is well established and straight forward.

12-08-2012 03:47 PM

SirTheta

Ancient Member

Grey's idea is great, but should only be implemented for Coward (automatically switch). There are many cases where you might fight in defensive, or even very defensive tactics. For defensive-very aggressive, it could ask if you want to attack non-hostiles, and on berserk/true berserk it could automatically attack. Or maybe make it user configurable? that might be the best.

It might still be nice to have a force attack key, though.

12-08-2012 04:04 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

If you do this, just a reminder that a player might accidentily have the tactics on berserk( or do you mean as in naked or wearing armour of rage when you say true berserk ) and use the extended move command, 'w[1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9]', and run into and 'unintentially' attack a non-hostile.

Otherwise, I think coward is perfect for auto-switching and will get people into the habit of setting tactics to coward, which is good.

Edit - Wait a minute, that won't work. I don't always use the 'l'ook command to check whether a NPC is hostile. I just set tactics to berserk sometimes and attack.
So, I think the best might be if the player is always queried, even in true berserk, except in coward it auto-switches.

12-08-2012 05:14 PM

aerol

Senior Member

If this is implemented I would not make it default. Implement a keystroke to activate it, and/or a configuration variable.

12-08-2012 05:45 PM

abase

Junior Member

It is great idea. You can just make some NPC resistant to the autoswap. And implement this functionality as an option.

12-08-2012 08:09 PM

anon123

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by adom-admin

The following is a list of unique NPCs in ADOM. I've bolded the ones that I believe you should be unable to swap with.

priest
ancient dwarf
cat lord
arena master
Snake from Beyond
Master Summoner
Ancient Chaos Wyrm
Ancient Stone Beast
dying sage
greater balor
druid
great water dragon
baby water dragon
fool
master necromancer
undead chaos dwarven berserker
village elder
mad carpenter
eternal guardian
bunny master
dwarven artificer
healer
greater white unicorn
crime lord
sheriff
Mad Minstrel - A trick involves luring him out of his hut to a high-DL area to get special corpses; ':s'wapping places would make it easier, I think.
carpenter
mad doctor
mummy lord
ghost librarian
multi-headed chaos dragon
black druid
oracle
old crone
ogre guardian
burly adventurer
malicious doctor
ElDeR cHaOs GoD
tiny girl
ancient blue wyrm
Chaos Archmage
assassin prince
ancient sage

Many uniques are enemies of the player. Immunity to that monk/beastfighter (can't remember) class power that lets you swap places with hostiles should be added too.

12-08-2012 08:17 PM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by adom-admin

Very interesting. I actually like this one. Please some more comments on this one.

What I would really love to see is that coward mode means that you do not attack non-hostiles, but do not switch places either. As if you were dual wielding shields. The problem with auto swapping is that some NPC's get angry when you do, especially dwarftown. For me, this is reason never to use auto-swapping mode in sage.

edit: if it is not too much work or overcomplicated, maybe there could be an auto-swap mode that can be turned on and off, to determine what happens when you bump into a non-hostile monster in coward mode?

12-09-2012 12:00 AM

Mar the Kraken Mar the Kraken is offline

Junior Member

Originally Posted by adom-admin

Very interesting. I actually like this one. Please some more comments on this one.

I like this as well, having an auto-switch on 'coward' mode would prevent accidental axe-flailing at unsuspecting children while also not disrupting gameplay when one is moving through a typically non-hostile area i.e. dwarftown.

I wonder also about the possibility of being able to switch with hostile monster on a weight based system? I understand that this already exists as a class level ability, but I have never understood why it is impossible to switch with a hostile foo. Any conflict is extremely unlikely to be a static swinging of limbs/swords/mandibles, so surely some sort of movement should be possible while in conflict? I propose that :s switching with a hostile monster is made possible, but that the likelihood of success be based upon the weight of said monster's corpse - getting past say a bear in a tunnel/corridor would be understandably difficult, but being trapped in a room because rats litter the floor seems counter-intuitive. Implementation of this would not necessarily nerf the class level ability either, which would remain untouched as a guaranteed switch, and thus extremely useful against stronger/larger enemies. Perhaps dexterity level could be a contributing consideration?

12-09-2012 12:22 AM

Aielyn

Senior Member

Originally Posted by grobblewobble

How is the problem of swapping with non-hostiles and angering them as a result any different in concept from the problem of attacking them in berserk mode? Just don't spend time in extreme modes except where necessary or appropriate.

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