Fix monsters squeezing past one another (and cut down on message spam)
issueid=1505 12-20-2012 05:36 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by SirTheta: 79
Fix monsters squeezing past one another (and cut down on message spam)
Monsters you are fighting should not switch place

One of the more annoying things about p7 is that monsters you are fighting now switch place (and more monsters in general). Now, I understand that this was a general fix for meatshields (although I personally don't think that was a problem..), but it is super annoying to constantly cycle through what you're fighting (especially in places like vaults or tension rooms). To top it all off, it creates an incredible, incredible amount of message spam.

My suggested fix(es): do not show messages for place switching unless the switcher switches into a place that is 2 tiles from PC (i.e. tiles next to PC, plus the tiles next to them). [edit: in retrospect, as JS points out, it would probably be fine to only show message for switching into tiles next to PC] Also, if a monster has been injured by the PC in the last turn (maybe last two turns to account for misses? but then one could damage/heal, though I don't know why one would), do not allow it to be switched out--unless it is panicking.


edit: I'd also like to note that I think a perfectly fine fix would be to changing this back to the way it was (except maybe orb guardians or something? was it broken there? I should probably look up entry where it was fixed). Having a meatshield used to be a pretty inventive way of escaping from a bad situation, and even provided a use for wand of monster creation/summon monsters spell. Of course, it's applicability was quite rare, so it wasn't really overpowered..
Issue Details
Issue Number 1505
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Fixed
Priority 5 - Medium
Affected Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Fixed Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 9
Milestone (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 3
Users unable to reproduce bug 1
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-21-2012 11:48 AM
Ancient Member
You're correct; I misread. However, your suggestion does not fix the problem. I've already given you two situations where DL doesn't really work--giant spiders have the same DL as DE Wiz, and tarantulas have a greater DL, as well as having the same DL as DE priestess. Both silver and dire wolves have the same DL as werewolf. I'm sure I could find more examples if I wanted to look, but it's kind of beside the point. You could simply give summoner higher priority to switch in, but that would kind of defeat the whole idea behind summoners, as well as not solving some of the other problems (why should a large gnoll switch in for a gnoll when we're engaged in heated combat?). I couldn't care less how monsters were switched except for the tile beside the PC. If the PC has damaged the creature in the last turn, it should not be eligible to be switched out, that's all. It's simple, straightforward, and solves any issues (well, there is the case of missing, but I don't think that will wind up being a huge deal). This works equally well for summoners, vaults, tension rooms, hallways, everything--even something like @&W in ToEF. ACW is eligible to switch in if I'm using fire demon as a meatshield (perhaps spamming stun ray), but as long as I'm actually fighting the fire demon, he can wait his turn. I don't really care if this makes "sense," or what have you, it's simply far more straightforward and less annoying.

12-21-2012 01:35 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta
You're correct; I misread. However, your suggestion does not fix the problem. I've already given you two situations where DL doesn't really work--giant spiders have the same DL as DE Wiz, and tarantulas have a greater DL, as well as having the same DL as DE priestess. Both silver and dire wolves have the same DL as werewolf. I'm sure I could find more examples if I wanted to look, but it's kind of beside the point. You could simply give summoner higher priority to switch in, but that would kind of defeat the whole idea behind summoners, as well as not solving some of the other problems (why should a large gnoll switch in for a gnoll when we're engaged in heated combat?). I couldn't care less how monsters were switched except for the tile beside the PC. If the PC has damaged the creature in the last turn, it should not be eligible to be switched out, that's all. It's simple, straightforward, and solves any issues (well, there is the case of missing, but I don't think that will wind up being a huge deal). This works equally well for summoners, vaults, tension rooms, hallways, everything--even something like @&W in ToEF. ACW is eligible to switch in if I'm using fire demon as a meatshield (perhaps spamming stun ray), but as long as I'm actually fighting the fire demon, he can wait his turn. I don't really care if this makes "sense," or what have you, it's simply far more straightforward and less annoying.
I think I've got the perfect solution, then.

Melee attacks prevent switching. If you attack a foe on a turn by melee, it cannot then be switched (by another foe) for the remainder of that turn. I would extend that restriction to also apply to any other damaging effect that applies only to an adjacent enemy, such as Burning Hands. Note that failure to damage isn't the restriction - if you attack, the foe is forced to defend itself, and it's that defense that prevents switching.

It prevents using a monster as a meatshield for long-distance attacks, but also prevents the switching problem from making others too powerful. Making it "if the foe was damaged" is unfair, because a miss allows a switch, while attacking with magic bolts or ball spells that can hit foes beyond the adjacent one will trigger the restriction in that case.

Also, if summoners can summon monsters beyond their DL, it doesn't make much sense, beyond perhaps Black Wizards, since they can summon almost anything (and thus should only be restricted by the DL of the level they summon on). But then, there's a simple adjustment to the rule I gave - summoned foes don't get priority over unsummoned foes. Since summoned beings are tagged as such, just as uniques are marked as unique, including them in the switching restriction should be easy.

To summarise my full suggestion to this point:

1. Monsters with higher DL should get priority in switching - the bigger the difference in DL, the easier it is for the higher DL monster to switch, and the harder it is for the lower DL monster to switch.
2. Uniques should always get priority over non-uniques.
3. Non-summoned should always get priority over summoned. Uncertain as to whether this should be extended to bred monsters.
4. Monsters should not be able to be switched for the duration of a foe's turn attacking it by melee or touch attack. This includes cases where the attacking foe is the PC, and thus foes cannot be switched if the PC is attacking them.

Note that 4 doesn't restrict the attacked monster from switching, only from being switched. This allows it to flee.

12-22-2012 12:18 AM
Ancient Member
Why should an adjacent foe be switched out if it is hit with a bolt or ball spell? As long as it is taking damage [i.e. not immune], it can stay put--it's not even being used as a meatshield..

I agree that I would probably prefer the melee attack thing, but it'd be pretty easy to abuse this (say, kicking at a monster on coward as a non-monk); though to what purpose, I don't know (maybe waiting for big bad titan to move off one square). That's why I choose "took damage," which is really quite hard to abuse, but does have a pitfall with misses.

I guess I agree with your metrics for switching; they seem a bit complicated though.

I don't know how ADOM handles switching, but an attacked monster shouldn't be able to switch out unless it is panicking (which is currently in-game). I believe I put this in my original post.

12-22-2012 05:53 AM
Ancient Member
I'll also note, as it currently stands, it's practically impossible to keep track of what mobs you've hit while invisible.

12-22-2012 08:02 AM
Member
I don't care for switching so much, but something needs to be done about the message spam. Getting a melee character surrounded by summoners and their pets in the big room = lines and lines and lines of spam, amongst which important messages like "you feel your great strength waning" tend to disappear.

01-09-2013 04:20 PM
The Creator
Messages from now only will appear for adjacent monsters being exchanged.
Lower level (creation level, not experience level) monsters no longer can switch with higher level monsters.

01-09-2013 04:23 PM
Ancient Member
Wow, that is really excellent! Thanks!

10-28-2013 06:13 AM
Ancient Member
This creation level not being able to switch position is ruining my ADoM experience.

This behavior has ruined my last two ADoM games, where it was impossible for my PC to damage the two foes standing next to him. I was forced to go to true berserking in the end, which only resulted in death of the PCs. One game I could forgive, but two in a row?!

Can you at least give them some small percentage chance of being able to switch, then at least for the patient players there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

P.S. I know in the old behaviour from 1.1.1 it would have been possible to get stuck with the same situation, but evolution is good.

10-29-2013 02:01 PM
Ancient Member
I'm not sure how you got stuck in that situation (it's an extreme rarity for me, with any monsters), but that doesn't seem like it's a problem to me. That can happen for any set of monsters, not just summoners, and you have to have some way of escaping that situation.

10-29-2013 03:07 PM
Ancient Member
Yes, it doesn't happen often, mostly early game and not only with summoners. When you don't have many 'options'. Believe you me I went through both options which was to attack with a sword or thrown rocks.

All that happens now is the highest creation level monsters squeezes to the front and stay there forever. If your character is too weak to damage it and you have 2 such foes in a corridor on each side.
The game is stuck until you starve or take all your armour off and switch to berserk.

There should of course be a way to escape from such a situation:

If there was a small chance for some weaker monster to switch to the front the PC can gain some xp and weapon marks or some friends or whatever.

10-30-2013 12:23 AM
Ancient Member
Yeah, I misinterpreted what you meant (and saw the problem when a swordsman switched effortlessly past pit vipers in a hallway). I'm not really sure it's fixable, though--eventually, you're going to have to fight those monsters, no?

10-30-2013 05:44 AM
Ancient Member
Most likely, yes. The weaker ones might have given you enough experience/weapon-skills/skills to now be able to damage them, though. Otherwise you can wait for more weaker ones.

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