More meaningful loot
issueid=1593 12-29-2012 02:25 PM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by szopin: 6
More meaningful loot

You can move this to RFE, I consider tihs a bug, such BIG one in fact that all scumming tactics revole(d) around it. Banshee wail in AF? Need more loot. Gremlin bombing? Need more loot. ID stairhopping? Need more loot.

As we're moving towards Steam version this has to be addressed in one way or another. Killing each and every boring/tiresome/repetitive tactic to get more loot is endless upkeep with no return other than players disconcerned. How about instead of dropping more loot decrease boring loot percentage? Make more interesting items drop more often - problem fixed. No need to stairhop or ID dive 1-3-1-... People come up with solutions (call them scummy who cares) to problems, Creator can fix it with a few tweaks, instead of banning next reincarnation of 'fix'
Issue Details
Issue Number 1593
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Fixed
Priority 5 - Medium
Affected Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 8
Fixed Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 9
Milestone (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 4
Users unable to reproduce bug 7
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-29-2012 02:42 PM
Ancient Member
This would be nice (although I don't support doing this instead of banning exploits, but along with that).

I think the overall amount of loot could also be increased, apart from the meaningfulness (which is somewhat harder to define - it's not simply a matter of dropping higher DL items: water is low DL and it's definitely meaningful for most characters).

12-29-2012 03:07 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
This would be nice (although I don't support doing this instead of banning exploits, but along with that).

I think the overall amount of loot could also be increased, apart from the meaningfulness (which is somewhat harder to define - it's not simply a matter of dropping higher DL items: water is low DL and it's definitely meaningful for most characters).
While in gaming way it might be hard to define in coding terms it is as easy as DL++ (or plus 2,3,4... or make adjectives more likely, why only 2-3 items with bonuses on average doing all quests and CoC dive???)

12-29-2012 06:13 PM
Ancient Member
I cannot reproduce this bug. I find the opposite true, but won't go so far as call it a bug.

So, if you want this to be a suggestion. My vote goes for the exact opposite.

Reduce item drops and make good items less likely to be generated.

Edit - If item drops are significantly reduced you won't find that many players using scumming tactics. Because it will become even more boring and less profitable.

I don't understand, what items are players grinding for?

12-29-2012 06:38 PM
Ancient Member
Now that (in order of relevance for an early-game PC):
* summoned monsters no longer drop items
* stairhopping is "fixed" (although you can still crawl the ID)
* summoned monsters can no longer be pickpocketed
* shopkeepers see in the dark
* trees are immune to the banshee's wail
* casino robbing is much harder, and casino gold is "fixed"

Increasing the base chance of item drops by e.g. 30 or 40 percent, would probably be a good idea.

12-29-2012 06:51 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by anon123
Now that (in order of relevance for an early-game PC):
* summoned monsters no longer drop items
* stairhopping is "fixed" (although you can still crawl the ID)
* summoned monsters can no longer be pickpocketed
* shopkeepers see in the dark
* trees are immune to the banshee's wail
* casino robbing is much harder, and casino gold is "fixed"

Increasing the base chance of item drops by e.g. 30 or 40 percent, would probably be a good idea.
Means of acquiring items was reduced, increasing the droprate would make more items. It feels so counter productive( I don't think that's a pun, is it?).

12-29-2012 06:59 PM
Ancient Member
I've never done heavy item scumming, and I've still got enough loot just from normally going through dungeons that I've never had any problems. I've even found a random pair of 7LB in almost each game that has gone on long enough (around the time I tackle the temples).

12-29-2012 07:19 PM
Senior Member
Instead of more loot... just add more lesser vaults, pls

They are pretty fun to clear [unless jelly or spider ones], and deal with loot shortages and also woul make obtaining artifacts in pre/postcrownings a bit easier at the cost of forsaking loot and some exp

12-29-2012 10:06 PM
Ancient Member
I think that considering some of the other changes that have been made, a slight increase in drop rates would probably be appropriate.

12-29-2012 10:48 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
I cannot reproduce this bug. I find the opposite true, but won't go so far as call it a bug.

So, if you want this to be a suggestion. My vote goes for the exact opposite.

Reduce item drops and make good items less likely to be generated.

Edit - If item drops are significantly reduced you won't find that many players using scumming tactics. Because it will become even more boring and less profitable.

I don't understand, what items are players grinding for?
I feel you're the only one that wants less/less meaningful loot. Noone stops you from posting an RFE. I specially named this 'More meaningful...' as there are a lot of useless drops for most characters already, simple increase in drops of unadjectived axes/swords/knives/spears is not gonna cut it. The item library is huge and it makes sense to give PC truely random drops, but for gameplay sake it doesn't work that well. People develop these tactics that generate 1000s of items in order to get anything useful. That's why meaningful is in the title
Edit: also: you seem to be the only one thinking that scumming/boring gets fixed by being more scumming/boring. Doesn't work that way. If players need something they will do it. Fix for your case (but you already don't do that): don't do that.

12-29-2012 11:00 PM
Ancient Member
The problem is that "more meaningful" depends very much on the PC and on their level and situation. An increase in spellbook drop rate does not help barbarians. An increase in weapon adjectives does not help beastfighters. I don't think changing the weighting of particular items is a great solution. If an increase in certain items results in a decrease in the availability of scrolls of identify or potions of water, this could be bad as well.

Prefixes/suffix probabilities are supposedly already dependent on PC level...

12-29-2012 11:04 PM
Senior Member
Very true. Best fix would take into account PC race/class combo (sadly don't think TB is planning to spend that much on bugfixing good old ADOM though): But adjectived items (not only weapons) would help all, even beastfighters.

12-29-2012 11:09 PM
Senior Member
Then again a lot of prefixes are not so sought after. Would you prefer ashen axe vs fickle, or corrupting one. The balance of not so good prefix/suffix items is already there.

12-30-2012 01:49 AM
Senior Member
Just increase amount of drops by monsters by 20%. Problem solved.

12-30-2012 01:54 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by tapi
Just increase amount of drops by monsters by 20%. Problem solved.
Yes and No. Getting 6 potions X instead of 5 doesn't really solve the problem. The "Meaningful" part of title is meaningful

12-30-2012 04:31 AM
Ancient Member
Huh? You don't just get another potion of x, you get an additional chance for the useful item y that you didn't get before. It affects all drops, and that includes so-called meaningful drops.

You get more crap, of course, but where exactly is the harm in that? ADOM players get crap all the time. They just let it lie there. If it doesn't weigh much, they'll pick it up and flog it at a store. All popular RPGs have crap. Diablo II has crap. Players just ignore the cracked battleaxes, but they'd miss them if they weren't there.

As an ADOM PC, the world does not exist to cater to your whims; if anything, it's hunting you for sport. Powerful items should be rare.

You describe "players don't get enough meaningful items through normal means" as the inherent problem that increasing drop rates - of "meaningful" items or not - is supposed to solve. Of course, in ADOM, there are always multiple solutions to any problem. "Get more items" is just the more comfortable one when compared to "Figure out how to use the items I have to do the job in front of me". At some point, players lose interest in the latter (because it involves learning, and that can get hard) and look for every way to do the former faster and with less risk, and that's how scumming methods become popular. And that's why scumming and grinding will never die completely, regardless of how you tweak drop rates for whatever items you like.

A slight increase in drop rates probably won't hurt. But ADOM should always reward the willingness to learn how to do without.

12-30-2012 04:36 AM
rho rho is offline
Member
I don't think this would eliminate the problem. Rather, I think that it would just move the goalposts. If people are currently scumming for item x, and you make that easier to obtain, then people will decide that what they actually need is the rarer item y, so they'll start scumming for that instead. If you make it so drops are numerous enough that they can get item y, then they'll scum for item z instead.

Short of just giving everyone max stats, every artifact, infinite wishes, and a way to generate prefixed and suffixed objects of their choice, there will always be items that can improve a character, and there will always be players who are willing to scum to gain these items.

12-30-2012 04:37 AM
Member
I'm going to have to second that.

12-30-2012 07:06 AM
Junior Member
I think that the primary point it that in the removal of all the "scummy" exploits, you are hurting all people, not just people scumming. Every character is down the 4-5 items they'd get from blink dogs or rats/other summoned things that will appear whether or not you are searching for them.
Now that (in order of relevance for an early-game PC):
* summoned monsters no longer drop items This hurts people who aren't scumming
* stairhopping is "fixed" (although you can still crawl the ID) This basically only hurts people scumming, but still reduces items that a non scummer may have found.
* summoned monsters can no longer be pickpocketed This hurts all players, much like other changes to summoning. Also, pickpocketing was made harder too, which hurts non scumming players too

THe problem is that people who want to grind/scum still will. They are content spending more time to find the same amount of stuff. People not willing to waste time will be hurt more by these changes. The proposal to make drops more common means that people who aren't scumming will find similar levels of items as they used to, while people scumming will be wasting more time to find a similar level as before.

Maybe a way to increase loot that isn't scummable is to have each dungeon (excepting the ID) have more items generated on the ground. This would slightly raise the chance of seeing a"surge of power" that someone requested earlier, and provide more items that are acquired through exploring the game rather than killing monsters, and happens to be unexploitable for sscumming purposes, as no more items will be generated, and once they are, they can't be changed by going down and back up.

12-30-2012 08:42 AM
Senior Member
I don't see a problem. If you are lacking meaningful items, grind deeper in the dungeon. If you need to do the TOEF and that ring of ice hasn't dropped, prepare to do it the hard way. I certainly don't have any trouble finding interesting items in pre7.

And lesser vaults are fun but time consuming. I think they appear with appropriate frequency now--if there were one every other level, then the game could turn into a slog.

12-30-2012 02:02 PM
Ancient Member
It seems I wasn't clear on this. The game generates more than enough usefull items. No scumming grinding is necessary.

I have never scummed or grinded for items(besides herbs) and find the game easy from just past the Fire Orb.

Most of my characters make it to the midgame without any grinding whatsoever.

Spellbook of frostbolt is guaranteed and pots of invisibility is easy to acquire through normal play or giving booze to a fool.

Elemental gauntlets, RotHK, ring of Ice, sword of Nonnak, Water Orb is also guaranteed

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