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Redesign Pick Pockets (again)

10-05-2013 09:02 PM

asdf

Senior Member

Number of reported issues by asdf: 54

Redesign Pick Pockets (again)

Pick Pockets was changed in pre7. (c) http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1204

Originally Posted by adom-admin

I have applied a few adjustments hopefully finding a decent middle ground between "too scummable" and "useless". Time will tell :-)

Time told - before this change, in 1.1.1 - Pick Pockets were easy, universal and usable by everyone. Just press buttons and collect your extra loot. Currently it is _still the same_ in regards to loot, but it requires *3-*5 more key clicks usually... making it unnecessary grindy.

Suggestion - Make lvl 1 Pick Pockets the same as 1.1.1 or even better (like 50% success rate with skill at 1 due to Dx/Stealth/whatever bonuses there were), but a sharp decline in Pick Pockets chance with monsters DL, while keeping it always high for Thiefs.

In playstyle it would look like this, assuming Pick Pockets + Dx + Stealth/4 - location DL*5 chance (DL*2 for Thiefs, DL*4 for Merchants/Gnomes with innate Pick Pockets skill, DL*3 for Gnome Merchants?) -
1) Level 1 character acquires Pick Pockets and levels it up a little bit, to 30 for example. Success rate for level 1 monsters - 30-60% depending on Dx and Stealth.
2) Level 15 character gets 100 in Pick Pockets skill. However, due to sharp decline in chance (lets say, -5%/level) - he still could only get 30-60% chance on level 15 monsters, even with maxed skill - there would be where everyone start to fall off and only Thiefs could still pick pocket with amazing chance.
3) Level 30 character with 100 in Pick Pockets skill, 100 in Stealth and 35 Dx - would only barely manage to pickpocket level 30 monsters with 10% chance. End of story.

It solves several problems with current Pick Pockets -
1) Removes mindless grind with hotkeyed skill - a14a14a14a14a14a14a14a14a14a14a14a14a14a14a14 to pickpocket goblins on level 1 and complete thief guild quest - base chance would be a lot higher. Also training Pick Pockets to 1dLe + 1dDx + 5 instead of 1 could be more appropriate.
2) Removes ability for everyone to use Pick Pockets efficiently - there would be a distinct difference between clumsy troll and stealthy dark elven assassin, even not counting Thiefs.
3) Removes ability to dump several skill points into Pick Pockets and dont care anymore until special locations like both Graveyards - skill would fall off quickly if you dont care about it.
4) Removes Pick Pockets influence in late game for everyone except Thiefs. Speeds up the game! yay!

Overall i think this is one of the most annoying features in the game currently, with "First Dwarf quest gives you too rare monsters and breaks normal flow of the quest line" and "Spider factories and other summoning monsters are too grindy and unrewarding" being in this list too.

Issue Details

Issue Number 2384

Issue Type Feature

Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)

Category All

Status Implemented

Priority 3

Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 17

Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21

Milestone (none)

Votes for this feature 5

Votes against this feature 3

Attachments 0

Assigned Users (none)

Tags (none)

10-05-2013 10:29 PM

Grond

Ancient Member

Amusingly, I've found the game to be less annoying since the pickpocket change. The prospect of satisfying Yergius is now so tedious that I'm unwilling to do it. And it turns out detect traps isn't that great after all.

As an aside: I really don't understand why the pickpocketing skill even exists in this game (not that I'm suggesting it be removed - I know some people like it). Stealing stuff from NPCs you don't want to kill isn't worth it - so what's the point? Do monsters' pockets implode when they die?

10-06-2013 12:35 AM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

Merchants are also thieves, they should also get the thief bonusses.

10-06-2013 07:29 AM

Al-Khwarizmi Al-Khwarizmi is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Grond

To be honest, it's exactly the same for me. But this doesn't feel too good, anyway. A quest shouldn't be so tedious that we ignore it. And Yergius is important enough that he should be accessible without tedious grinding. I think his quest should be totally redesigned or an alternative given, e.g., steal item X from powerful dude Y.

About pick pockets, IMHO it doesn't add anything to the game but grinding, and just increasing or decreasing its success chance is not going to change that. To be honest I wouldn't miss it if it were removed altogether. But if it isn't, then at the very least it should be restricted to nonhostiles or to hostiles that haven't noticed you yet. In exchange, a significant buff could be applied, for example it could generate items of current DL + 10, or it could generate more gold than normal, then pickpocketing would feel exciting. But fighting mobs and pickpocketing them at the same time doesn't make much sense, and it adds a strategic/tactical value of zero because most mobs are not powerful and you don't really need to pick the most powerful ones (the reward is the same for a goblin that for a doppleganger lord).

10-06-2013 11:39 AM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

I like most of the OP's suggestions.

One must consider that some players enjoy pickpocketing, if a player wants to pickpocket and get the skill to 100 he/she should have a very good chance at success in my opinion.

I don't think we should take things out of the game that some people enjoy. I definately don't enjoy pickpocketing, but I'm not going to force anybody to not do it.

The way pickpocketing works now, one can still reasonably without much grinding get accepted into the thieves guild, if you make a point of it to calm monsters and only steal from calm ones. And don't try to steal from special monsters generated in areas that already produce extra items, you greedy sod.

Edit - I do believe the amount of successful attempts to get accepted into the thieves' guild should be reduced though as you can see in this RFE.

10-06-2013 03:03 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

I still think that the solution for Yergius' quest is to count stealing any 1 item from a shop as sufficient for completion. Robbery from stores is already part of the quest, and it's much trickier than PP.

10-06-2013 03:11 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

Agree with JellySlayer, but I would say stealing at least one item from shops should count, not only one. :p

10-06-2013 03:50 PM

Al-Khwarizmi Al-Khwarizmi is offline

Ancient Member

By the way, about the OP's idea of making pickpocketing harder for high-DL monsters... I think that wouldn't be very useful, because you can still pickpocket a goblin in D:40 and get items of DL 40. There isn't much need to pickpocket high-DL monsters the way the item drop system works.

If the items generated by pickpocketing were dependent on monster DL rather than location DL, on the other hand...

10-06-2013 10:18 PM

asdf

Senior Member

Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi

You cant, because goblin on D:40 would be in DL:40 location. It should be location-dependent, not monster-dependent.

10-07-2013 05:11 AM

Al-Khwarizmi Al-Khwarizmi is offline

Ancient Member

OK, as you said "a sharp decline in Pick Pockets chance with monsters DL", I was assuming that you referred to each individual monster's DL (e.g. a goblin in D:40 having DL 1), and not to location DL. Maybe you could clarify it in the original post.

If it's by location DL, I think it would be a good change, although I still think there are deeper problems (pickpocketing hostiles that you are fighting really doesn't makes sense, Yergius quest should be less grindy, etc.) But if it's too late for more in-depth changes, your suggestion would be good. So I'm voting yes, to be interpreted as "well, it's not the very best solution IMHO, but it's definitely much better than nothing".

10-07-2013 01:28 PM

anon123

Ancient Member

I was assuming that you referred to each individual monster's DL (e.g. a goblin in D:40 having DL 1)

And what would be wrong with that?

10-08-2013 03:39 AM

TDau

Member

I wouldn't mind if things were reverted to the old behavior. Or keep Pick Pockets as it is now, but make Yergius' quest easier (lower the requirements or/and increase the level of the skill taught by Yergius; also, as JellySlayer suggested, stealing one item from a shop should be enough to satisfy the quest).

10-08-2013 05:40 AM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

Why must it be one item, can't we just say "stealing from a shop should be enough".

10-08-2013 06:56 AM

Al-Khwarizmi Al-Khwarizmi is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by anon123

And what would be wrong with that?

That at any point in the game, you would just need to worry about not pickpocketing the powerful monsters and it would be as scummy as always (a goblin in D:40 will generate the same items as a dragon in D:40 anyway, so why bother with the dragon...)

10-08-2013 06:26 PM

anon123

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by TDau

I wouldn't mind if things were reverted to the old behavior.

I certainly wouldn't either, but it's probably not going to happen, so you kind of have to seek a compromise between that and the largely useless skill we have now.

12-12-2013 02:38 PM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Grond

I stopped bothering with pickpocketing and detect traps even before the nerf to pick pockets. Didn't even notice it became more tedious than it was. Something along the lines of this RFE sounds like a good idea.

12-12-2013 03:43 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

IMHO, more important than Detect Traps at this point is being able to get Stealth for classes who don't have it. And Climbing training if you're desperate to get to the library and don't want to spend 100 days wandering the wilderness trying to train the skill manually.

01-20-2014 05:45 AM

SirTheta

Ancient Member

I think I missed this before, but this is a fantastic idea. I've recently tried a Thief (after not using Pick Pockets or Detect Traps for much of 1.1.1), and I must say it was a MASSIVE disappointment to not be able to, y'know, steal from creatures. This would be a very welcome change.

01-20-2014 11:04 AM

Orbic

Senior Member

I'll steal the OP suggestion in the left pocket, and add from my right pocket:

I would like to see the pickpocket skill a little bit more on the realistic side.

No pickpocket possible at all (or close to 0 success chances) for hostiles monsters that have noticed you. It seems silly to pickpocket each monster in a tension room savagely trying to chop you into tiny bits.
For the other cases, bonuses for stealth, dexterity, speed and invisibility. It seems to me the current version takes in account the respective sizes (i.e. yours and the target) in the calculation - am I wrong?
The first attempt only should have significant success probability, subsequent attempts chance should quickly fall to null.

01-20-2014 04:44 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

> It seems to me the current version takes in account the respective sizes (i.e. yours and the target) in the calculation - am I wrong?

I think possibly experience level or DL of the victim, I have noticed something in the regard. I'll do some testing tonight if I can get away from NC alignment(not risking falling :)).

01-22-2014 06:56 PM

adom-admin adom-admin is offline

The Creator

I strongly believe that the idea of pocket picking is neat but I agree that the current implementation is not helpful. We'll continue to fiddle with it ;-)

I have applied the following adjustments:
- Instead of 100 marks you now just need 30 marks to get inducted into the thieves guild.
- Robbing shops has become a lot more valuable.
- Heavier items stolen are slightly more valuable to becoming inducted to the thieves guild.
- The probability of successfully stealing has been increased somewhat.
- In turn item value now depends on the basic threat level of the monster.

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