Let Duelists crown with Trusted One instead of Bugbiter
issueid=2513 12-02-2013 02:01 AM
Member
Number of reported issues by Tannis: 3
Let Duelists crown with Trusted One instead of Bugbiter

Why duelists shouldn't be able to crown with bugbiter: Besides being a generally terrible and disappointing weapon, duelists train slowly in polearms and almost always go swords, maces, or axes. It doesn't make sense for a polearm to be one of their crowning gifts.

Why duelists should crown with Trusted One: Duelists already have very powerful offensive weapons as possible gifts (executor and kinslayer). Rapier of the needle is good for the high dex/speed builds. Trusted one, in turn, is the best defensive weapon in the game. While other characters might avoid TO due to the low damage output, a duelist could still use it to good effect due to their enhanced damage with high marks, their faster mark gain, and their higher DPS due to faster attacks. Finally, there's something stylish in a master swordsman naming his weapon "trusted one."
Issue Details
Issue Number 2513
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 8
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 12
Votes against this feature 2
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-02-2013 02:07 AM
Ancient Member
I think duelists train all melee weapons at the same rate. I would also suspect you will find that lots and lots of people use polearms for duelists because one handed spears gives such nice bonuses in their ranks, and, lacking shields, the extra polearms DV in particular is pretty attractive--polearms are probably the most commonly used weapons class overall by a fair margin, and not just because there are several artifact ones that are really great (ToTRR, RCT, etc.)

That said, I have nothing against swapping Bugbiter for Trusted One. I think thematically it does make more sense.

12-02-2013 02:19 AM
Senior Member
Duelists require 3x as many marks for polearms, two-handed, staves, and unarmed. I think their class powers don't function even with one-handed polearms. See below.

12-02-2013 02:33 AM
Member
Grond is correct, duelists train slower in polearms compared to swords, axes, and maces. Also, while ToTRR and RCT are great weapons, they are less great to duelists who lose their class powers with two handed weapons. I've taken 3 duelists to the ToEF and won today with a high elf duelist, and I would need an incredible early game find to consider pole arms. Even then I'd still probably switch later to other weapons, given how fast duelist can hit grand mastery in swords or axes.

12-02-2013 02:52 AM
Senior Member
A quick test showed that duelist powers (at least energy cost reduction) do apply to one-handed polearms. On the other hand, the level 40 class power doesn't increase polearms ranks.

12-02-2013 07:21 AM
Ancient Member
I've never found trusted one or bugbiter, very odd I know. Could somebody post their stats.

12-02-2013 08:18 AM
Ancient Member
http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Trusted_One
Code:
-------------------------- rune-covered long sword--------------------------

The rune-covered long sword is actually an uncursed rune-covered long sword 
"Trusted One" (+1, 5d3) [+7, +7].
It is an artifact.

When wielded it modifies DV by +7 and PV by +7.
When used in melee combat it grants a +1 bonus to hit and causes 5d3 
points of damage. When used as a missile it grants a -6 bonus to hit 
and causes 1d3 points of damage.

It grants resistance to fire.
It grants resistance to cold.
It grants resistance to acid.
It grants resistance to sleep attacks.
It grants resistance to petrification.
It grants resistance to stunning.
It grants resistance to death attacks.
It grants resistance to paralyzation.
It grants resistance to shock attacks.
http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Bugbiter
Code:
------------------------------- ebony spear--------------------------------

The ebony spear is actually a blessed ebony spear "Bugbiter" (+3, 4d7+3) [+1, +1]
{Dx+3}.
It is an artifact.

When wielded it modifies DV by +1 and PV by +1.
When used in melee combat it grants a +3 bonus to hit and causes 4d7+3
points of damage. When used as a missile it grants a +0 bonus to hit 
and causes 4d7 points of damage.

It is an insect slayer.
It modifies your dexterity attribute by +3.
It grants resistance to poison.

12-02-2013 08:31 AM
Senior Member
I understand that for a duelist the Trusted One would probably be a better bet, but then many artifacts would be a better bet for many other classes. The other duelist crowning gifts are quite fitting and good, so to me it's totally fine that there's some not-so-great among them. This is the situation for many other classes as well. I cannot imagine wanting Shezestriakis for my merchant (or whoever can get them) for example. Or if I could choose, would I really want Hammer of the Gods instead of Justifier for my paladin?

12-02-2013 09:11 AM
Ancient Member
Trusted One is flippin awesome +7,+7 and all the resistances. It should be called 'sword of resistance'. Wow. Currently Duelists are so OP, don't think they deserve this artifact. No, from me.

12-02-2013 11:51 AM
Ancient Member
Overpowered? Trusted One is supposed to be a weapon, and its offensive capabilities are horrible. (5d3 is equivalent to an adamantium longsword.) Really interesting how it would work out on a duelist, actually. Does the class offer enough punch that it can use a low damage melee weapon and still deal endgame-worthy damage? Any character who would have used Trusted One before this point would have been relying on missiles or spells to do the work.

If duelists don't even train properly in polearms, Bugbiter is a really poor fit for a crowning gift and should be swapped out - not because it's not as good as other crowning gifts - that happens often and is just fine - but because it lacks any synergy with the class itself. It's the equivalent of a monk getting Perion's plate mail, or a beastfighter getting Vanquisher, or any class that isn't paladin getting Justifier. The same could end up applying to Trusted One, of course, if it turns out that even with Duelist power and with all its much-appreciated resistances it's just too weak to be a good choice. But at least it's one-handed and gets full marks.

12-02-2013 12:51 PM
Ancient Member
Personally I believe Trusted One is completely ok to replace Bugbiter because it will totally suck on them. You don't need protection with duelists because 60% of the time you hit without retaliation.

In any case, slaying (+crit) weapons are endgame material -- In most cases the main portion of damage from weapon comes from +bonuses (Strength, weapon skill, tactics, rings of slaying etc.) and this is where swords of sharpness and eternium weaponry starts to fade into oblivion.

Hey, how about an RFE to add "of <foo> slaying" suffixes?

12-02-2013 01:19 PM
Ancient Member
A yes to this RFE and a yes to foo slaying ego weapons. It would add to the richness of the game to see characters using more non artifact weapons in the late game.

12-02-2013 02:25 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
Overpowered? Trusted One is supposed to be a weapon, and its offensive capabilities are horrible. (5d3 is equivalent to an adamantium longsword.) Really interesting how it would work out on a duelist, actually. Does the class offer enough punch that it can use a low damage melee weapon and still deal endgame-worthy damage? Any character who would have used Trusted One before this point would have been relying on missiles or spells to do the work.
I actually just yesterday beat the game with a human duelist who found Trusted One randomly in a greater vault around D:35 and used it for the rest of the game (mostly because I'm an artifact lover who would kit my characters in all artifacts all the time, but the best weapon I've found otherwise was a murderous club of devastation (+3, 5d6+9) and it wouldn't protect my character from a freak gorgon incident), including killing Nuurag-Vaarn and all the balors in melee. Seems good enough, though certainly it would still be the least desirable crowning gift (or at best second least desirable for people who don't quite appreciate how good Kinslayer is).

If duelists don't even train properly in polearms, Bugbiter is a really poor fit for a crowning gift and should be swapped out - not because it's not as good as other crowning gifts - that happens often and is just fine - but because it lacks any synergy with the class itself.
Yeah, Bugbiter is "Priests get crowned with Justifier (at half the stated damage)" all over again.

A strong yes to this one.

12-02-2013 03:00 PM
Ancient Member
Yes Duelists are overpowered, because of their class powers, they kill most foes in melee before the enemy can react. Even with a 0d0+0 weapon. A couple months ago I was playing a Chaos Knight, another overpowered class. That through self imposed restrictions wielded a orcish spear all the way to the guaranteed GV, where she found the Scorched spear. She was glad it could not be destroyed, but otherwise she was one-hitting foes with either, there was no noticeable difference between the two weapons.

I did not say that bugbiter is not a bad crowning gift for duelists, it certainly is. I think I'll gladly wield 'Trusted One' to the end, just for those godly resistances.

As someone else said most of the mid to endgame damage comes from the damage that the character adds to attacks and weapon's damage is mostly irrelevant. In the end you are looking at maybe 15 damage on average between the two. Barring that the one is a pole-arm.

The main reason I'm voting this down is because of what I already said. Duelists being very powerful in melee and pathetic in missile combat, giving them these resistances so early in the game already would just make their life even easier than it already is.

12-02-2013 11:44 PM
Ancient Member
Trusted One is objectively just not a very good weapon. It's an excellent piece of armor, no questions asked.

I have trouble believing that duelists wouldn't be able to notice the difference between a decent weapon and a crap weapon, even late game, but I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing the duelist late game myself. I also don't think the resistances offered by Trusted One are so overpowered that we can't even allow a one in six chance that duelists who become champions of their gods get their hands on it. Most of that stuff isn't "powerful", just very situational. You're relieved of the hassle of unequipping the ankh for protective amulets at times, and you get an additional layer of resistances you're bound to already possess by the time you're crowned (crowning comes with an immunity, for that matter, so at least one elemental resistance is redundant). Trusted One doesn't offer immunities, it doesn't offer regeneration, it doesn't offer stat bonuses. (Weirdly enough, it doesn't seem to offer confusion resistance either.) [+7, +7] is a sweet bonus, but nowhere near overpowering. We have that on Preserver in addition to regeneration and decent stat bonuses and no one's batting an eye.

There are many alternatives to Bugbiter (which, as mentioned, should be removed because it belongs to a weapon class duelists suck at training), though I agree with JellySlayer that Trusted One just seems thematically appropriate. A duelist wears only one weapon and no shield; that weapon is basically an extension of their body, something of far greater importance to their fighting style than a fighter's or a barbarian's weapon of choice - any weapon they decide to use is their "Trusted One" by definition.

12-04-2013 01:56 AM
Senior Member
Related: 1655.

01-22-2014 07:48 PM
The Creator
Replaced Bugbiter with Trusted One. Now idea how this happened originally ;-)

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