Regarding #2601 - weighted monster distribution
issueid=2603 01-04-2014 02:30 PM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by asdf: 54
Regarding #2601 - weighted monster distribution

Weighted monster distribution was already RFE's and discuissed on this forums - http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1116

In the same RFE I've experimented with executable modifications to find out optimal adjustments.

Majority of the players agree, that early game (pre-animated forest/dwarven halls, DL - 1-~14) do not need any adjustments - they are fine as it is, and the first locations to experience slight increase in high-level monsters would be ToHK and CoC level below Animated Forest. Late-game is probably best defined as diving past Casino to Air/Earth/Mana Temples, guaranteed Greater Vault and perhaps Blue Dragon Caves.

Unseen complications that i found while experimenting -
1) Level 1/2/3/4/5 mosnters have 14%/14%/9%/6%/12% spawn chance respectively. First 5 levels total have 55% spawn chance. If they are just removed from spawn - it feels like a different game, and i'm not sure if it is better.
2) Some high danger monsters have extremely low spawn chance - for example, great red wyrms have 2 spawn chance. Even emperor liches which could be as dangerous if not more - have 10 spawn chance. No amount of general spawn chance changes depending on DL would fix this.
3) Some monsters rarity does not change depending on their hierarchy - for example baby dragons, dragons and ancient dragons all have spwan chance of 10. If is probably too low for baby dragons and for normal dragons, and maybe a little bit high for ancient dragons.

In-depth analysis of 2) and 3) would be in separate RFE if needed.

Issues with proposed #2601 RFE -
4) _very_ steep change in monster distribution due to 1) -
DL 10 with lvl 10 PC would be same as before.
DL 15 with lvl 15 PC would feel quite different already due to halving rarity of low-lvl monsters and a lot of higher-level monsters appearing.
DL 20 with lvl 20 PC.... would feel almost same as before, as majority of possible monsters now have their spawn rate halved! Only change would be occasional high-level monsters appearing more frequently.
DL 25 with lvl 25 PC - another steep step, which would be _very_ drastic and _very_ sudden - one level you are fighting with goblins and just several levels below you cant find nothing familiar. It does not help that DL20-30 is _one_ ride to the depth of CoC usually.
DL 30 with lvl 30 PC - i think that would be already almost impossible to play and another very sudden change in monster distribution. Also it would make passage through Dwarven Halls impossible for most PCs.
DL 36 with lvl 36 PC (where endgame starts, before Air Temple) - unplayable nightmare. let me elaborate - you almost cant spawn low-level monsters, monsters with DL 16-26 are half as likely to be encountered, DL 26-36 is full chance and DL 37+ cannot spawn.
Just fun fact - most common monsters at this level would be - Fire Giant, Frost Giant, Titan. Yes, Titan.

My suggestion for monster distribution - reduce spawn rate of monsters 15 lvl or more below current danger level (on lvl 16 PC and lvl 16 DL - goblins will start to be less common) - by 6% per one DL, stacking multiplicatively.
This way 500 rarity goblin on DL 15 will be ~270 rarity on DL 25, ~200 rarity on DL 30, ~105 rarity on DL 40.
This will fix too sudden changes on monster rarity (which will be especially drastic on DL 20-25 and 10-15) and still leave late game playable, which i doubt it will be with current proposal.

Additional tweaking of high-level monsters rarity still will be needed, however.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2603
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 3
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 22
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 4
Votes against this feature 2
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




01-04-2014 03:14 PM
Ancient Member
The steep jumps look especially undesirable imo.

My suggestion for monster distribution - reduce spawn rate of monsters 15 lvl or more below current danger level (on lvl 16 PC and lvl 16 DL - goblins will start to be less common) - by 6% per one DL, stacking multiplicatively.
Some sort of gradual increase like this sounds good. Not sure about the exact numbers proposed here, but I like the general idea.
However, I would suggest a lower cap on spawn rates of common monsters. To make the spawn rate of goblins and the like drop to, say, 1% rather than 0%.

01-04-2014 06:02 PM
Ancient Member
I hope everything does not become as dangerous as mixed tension rooms or vaults... And please check how the changes affect on cavernous levels too which are already now really dangerous due to summoners and very large number of other monsters.

01-04-2014 07:22 PM
Ancient Member
Well, the Creator fixed some 'bugs' for prerelease 21. I think we should maybe first playtest his fixes before we jump the gun.
A level 36 PC should have little trouble handling those monsters you mentioned anyway, hardly a nightmare.

01-05-2014 08:10 AM
Ancient Member
Dwarven Halls is the only potential issue that seems to stand out as a significant problem. By level 25 or so, a typical PC is strong enough to kill pretty much any monster anyway--even balors or emperor liches. Diving to the Wall of Flames too early could possibly become quite risky as well, I suppose. Yes, there will be very substantial changes to the endgame with this in place. Needs some playtesting before we make any serious evaluations of the subject, IMHO. Pre21 will be very exciting I think.

01-05-2014 11:14 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
Well, the Creator fixed some 'bugs' for prerelease 21. I think we should maybe first playtest his fixes before we jump the gun.
A level 36 PC should have little trouble handling those monsters you mentioned anyway, hardly a nightmare.
I have to agree with you here. I've cleared the BDC and killed a threat room of greater titans with a level 35 char. These monsters are hardly a "nightmare." It might make players choose to play more cautiously and run away/evade more often, which IMO is a good change. Why shouls you be strolling through D:40 killing goblins and bats left and right?

01-05-2014 03:13 PM
Ancient Member
Well, I'm not sure if the actual dangerousness is a problem - my gut feeling is that it probably is - but having a very steep / sudden change in monster distribution doesn't make any sense in my opinion, so I support this RFE.

01-06-2014 04:58 PM
Ancient Member
Interesting question: Does this affect summons? Master summoner might suddenly become a much more interesting fight. Not a bad thing, necessarily, but something to check.

[edit]Also, this changes the dynamics of the cat quest quite a bit. Cats are pretty low DL monsters, so the vast majority of the CoC is now cat-forbidden areas.

01-06-2014 07:31 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
Interesting question: Does this affect summons? Master summoner might suddenly become a much more interesting fight. Not a bad thing, necessarily, but something to check.

[edit]Also, this changes the dynamics of the cat quest quite a bit. Cats are pretty low DL monsters, so the vast majority of the CoC is now cat-forbidden areas.
Another welcome change IMO. (Though maybe TB could implement ChAoS Tigers or some other higher level cats?)

01-06-2014 10:09 PM
Ancient Member
I generally agree that we should simply wait for pre21 and play it to find out how this works.
Secondly, I don't think any hacking of the executable can be compared to dynamic variables introduced by TB.
I think asdf's assessment might be wrong simply because he could never reproduce the same effect with exe hacking as is achieved by compiling a source.
Who knows, with all the stuff that TB mentioned in the past about the code being messy, there might as well be some interesting checks that further differentiate monster distribution and cannot be emulated without the source.
Hence, I'm against this RFE. Let's play pre21 first when it comes out and complain later if shit hits the fan and we got our faces right in front of it.

04-19-2014 10:52 PM
The Creator
p22 now will have a weighted monster distribution. Let's continue the experiment ;-)

04-20-2014 12:42 AM
Ancient Member
I think it is a bit soon to be already making adjustments before the experiment has even started, only one player has said it will be too difficult and from the original post he/she is scared of Fire Giants and Titans with a lvl 36 character. Suggesting that he/she is not the best person to make a judgment call in this regard.

04-20-2014 01:01 AM
Senior Member
Currently you are plagued by:
DL 15-20 - werewolf lords
DL 25-30 - berserker emperors
DL 30-35 - diamond golems, ancient dragons (especially karmic)
DL 35-40 - titans

You could try this save (immediately go upstairs to avoid crashing after loading) - http://file.karelia.ru/3vrwrn/ , so you could save the time and provide some input yourself.

04-20-2014 01:17 AM
Ancient Member
Your savefile is not compatible for me in either Windows ASCII nor NotEye, I should be on those levels tomorrow. Those monsters you listed are to be expected on those DLs, so I'm a bit confused.

04-20-2014 01:21 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
Your savefile is not compatible for me in either Windows ASCII nor NotEye, I should be on those levels tomorrow. Those monsters you listed are to be expected on those DLs, so I'm a bit confused.
It was created using debian 32-bit ADOM binary.

And yes, those monsters are expected to be on those DLs. They are not expected to be almost the stable monster of them, being a new goblins in terms of abundance.

04-20-2014 01:25 AM
Ancient Member
That sounds good, I'm looking forward. If there is not enough variety in monster distribution on one specific level then I am already in agreement with this a change.

04-20-2014 04:08 PM
Ancient Member
If I look at your screenshots of DH and mine, then the monsters generated there looks quite varied. It is odd that it would be different on other "normal" levels.

04-21-2014 06:26 AM
Senior Member
It never made sense to me finding bandits on d48. Barring any real unlucky RNG rolls, this should make the game more interesting.

04-22-2014 01:07 AM
Member
Anecdotal p21 reports from IRC include 'great red wyrm, great white wyrm. just a normal day on D:40', 'this game called "line up as much greater molochs as you can to preserve MM" is sure fun', and 'cause of death on D:40: I can't eat because I'm constantly harassed by werewolf kings.' Hilarious, but could definitely use some tweaking.

04-22-2014 01:28 AM
Ancient Member
Werewolf kings don't see in the dark nor invisible. ;)

Edit - Although I vaguely remember a suggestion that they should see in darkness, or remember it has been changed that they do. Will have to test to verify.

04-22-2014 01:35 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by asdf
Currently you are plagued by:
DL 15-20 - werewolf lords
DL 25-30 - berserker emperors
DL 30-35 - diamond golems, ancient dragons (especially karmic)
DL 35-40 - titans
adding next one -
DL 40-45 - lich kings, summoning everyting in alarming numbers

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