Turn appearance into a useful attribute
issueid=2609 01-06-2014 08:50 AM
The Creator
Number of reported issues by adom-admin: 237
Turn appearance into a useful attribute

See the description and discussion under http://www.ancientdomainsofmystery.c...attribute.html.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2609
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 2
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 20
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 13
Votes against this feature 4
Assigned Users adom-admin
Tags (none)




01-06-2014 09:24 AM
Senior Member
Will 19000 corruption limit remain as it is and it will be reached by less corruptions if you had high Ap?
What if you are wearing +Ap items to make spacing 1200, reach 6000 corruption and 5 corruptions with it, receive -Ap corruption and change to -Ap items to make spacing 950 for 6 corruptions total at 6000 corruption - will it add a new corruption from a thin air?
If not - if you receive 6 corruptions with spacing 1000 (6000 total), then imporve your Ap to 1200 spacing and read SoCR for all 6000 points (5 corruptions now) - will it leave you with one uncleansable corruption at 0 CP?
Will Ap influence an effect (in corruption points, not in amount of corruptions removed) of SoCR or PoCC?

01-06-2014 09:56 AM
Member
What about Charisma? My memory is that Charisma, at the moment, affects the same way Appearance does, though for the same gender. Or am I behind the times on that?

I don't mind Appearance being worked on... in fact I think it's a great idea and voted for it... but does this just make Charisma the only 'dump stat' now? Or are there things Charisma does more that I didn't know about?

01-06-2014 10:44 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Kurasu
I don't mind Appearance being worked on... in fact I think it's a great idea and voted for it... but does this just make Charisma the only 'dump stat' now? Or are there things Charisma does more that I didn't know about?
I think it affects the extent to which pets obey you. Although it definitely could see some more usefulness as well.

01-06-2014 10:56 AM
Ancient Member
I think it also affects whether there will be an option to offer peace to a panicking 'intelligent' monster.

01-06-2014 01:31 PM
Junior Member
I voted against this one.

I'm rather sure a barely related effect is worse than no effect. IMO the attribute in its current state shouldn't represent both "inner beauty" and physical appearance because they're unrelated. Sorry, I think this is a silly idea.

I wouldn't mind if appearance was demoted from the attribute status and left in just for flavour possibly in the background information view. Additionally, I guess extreme ugliness could make NPC's scared.

01-06-2014 01:44 PM
Ancient Member
Well, there is some in game effects influenced by the PC's Appearance. Removing the little that it does is not necessary either. I for one often use Appearance to my advantage. If others don't, well, it's their loss.

I'm also voting against, because it doesn't make much sense to me.

Actually I change my opinion, Being born in the month of the Unicorn already reduces the rate of corruption. So this appearance thing is already part of the game.

01-06-2014 02:23 PM
Senior Member
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, in a sensical way. Appearance and corruption don't seem related in any way. I'd rather think it's the integrity of the person that affects corruption, so for example you'd get corrupted faster if you did alignment swapping (now THAT would be awesome).

Also, why would I ever choose a male PC after this? It also seems like this would make playing orcs and trolls as chaotics even more difficult, as on top of getting more corruption and being crowned with corruptions and being shut out of a LOT of corruption removal (unicorn quest, mystic, Guth'Alak), you'd also have this. Unless the thinking is that if you require less points per corruption, you'd be able to get more corruptions before you die? And if you're beautiful, you'd be able to get less corruptions before you die? I guess this would give a use for those scrolls of corruption-thing, which I never use.

01-06-2014 02:34 PM
Ancient Member
Think of it this way, being ugly actually has a great advantage now too. ;)

Also gives some use to Ap reducing items.

01-06-2014 02:57 PM
Junior Member
Do Ap and Ch genuinely affect shop prices for females and males respectively in p20? In 1.1.1, according to tests, the mechanic was either bugged, nonexistent or so minor that it was practically useless.

In my view, Ap could be reworked to be a "chaos resistance" attribute of sorts. SingBird mentioned integrity and I think that would work.

01-06-2014 03:10 PM
Ancient Member
I'd really not like to see Ap renamed to integrity or something like that.

Things like growing a total of 12 eyes don't affect your integrity, they make you damn ugly. Orcs are ugly, wearing a blood-stained robe is ugly, wearing a nice cloak makes you more beautiful, etc. And if in Ancardia beauty is related to some mystical grace permeating beings, and this makes it harder for corruption to penetrate, it's fine by me. It ties into many fantasy and mythology tropes in fact.

If we really want to be politically correct and not say being ugly is a bad thing, the attribute could be renamed to "beauty". Then each player can interpret that as "outer beauty" or "inner beauty", or a mix of both, depending on how they want to roleplay and to imagine the way Chaos works. But I think changing it to deeper concepts like integrity, purity, etc. is really not needed. It's a fantasy game, not a children's educational book!

01-06-2014 03:24 PM
Ancient Member
I think people are WAY too hung up about "inner beauty" and "outer beauty" and all this BS. It's a game, the name means what the game wants it to mean. The change makes plenty of sense (the examples TB gives in the post, the unicorn starsign, etc.) and I think it offers a lot of benefits (strategy and otherwise - no longer will people want to wear the AMW into the end game, which offers some interesting problems for duelists/monks).

(TB's response to changing Ap in the comments on the post:
Actually my idea is that ADOM will memorize the appearance score you had when you gained a specific corruption level. So if you start with an Ap of 50 (just for the sake of the example) and accumulate 1401 corruption points, you'd get your first corruption. If your Ap then falls to 10 (so that you need 1000 more corruption points for the second corruption) you need a total of 2401 CP for two corruptions. Thus changes in Ap won't affect your total corruption level but only the progression towards the final transformation.)

Quote Originally Posted by Zultheer
Do Ap and Ch genuinely affect shop prices for females and males respectively in p20? In 1.1.1, according to tests, the mechanic was either bugged, nonexistent or so minor that it was practically useless.
Ap has definitely always affected shop prices majorly (even in 1.1.1) - it can be easily seen by looking at prices before and after putting on a cloak of adornment or such. It is the same for p20.

01-06-2014 04:13 PM
Ancient Member
Changing the internals to count smaller amounts of corruption (for example by dividing current corruption points into 1000 or N pieces) and keeping the fixed amount required to gain a corruption would allow accumulating corruptions like now and just using current appearance score to determine how many points should be added(*).

This method would not cause any problems with changing appearance scores because limit will stay fixed and you'll be always corrupted according to your current appearance and not something in the past. Also corruption removal will continue to work as before (original proposal does not seem to say anything about changing effectiveness of SoCR and PoCC, effectively making them less effective for persons with high appearance).

(*) Formula for counting added corruption points will be floor(1000*N/(1000 + (Ap-10)*10)). For example with N=1000 and Ap=22 that would be 892 corruption points. This could also be simplified as floor(1000*N/(900 + Ap*10)). Without rounding errors this formula should have exactly the same effect as already implemented version and with rounding errors (with N=1000) it will be off by only 0-0.2%.

01-06-2014 06:02 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta
Ap has definitely always affected shop prices majorly (even in 1.1.1) - it can be easily seen by looking at prices before and after putting on a cloak of adornment or such. It is the same for p20.
Sorry, I can't believe that. What kind evidence are you able to bring out? The tests I conducted justify my verdict. You can find them on this forum as I published them on the Nezur account.

Edit: unfortunately I seem unable to find detailed descriptions about the tests or I just didn't publish them after all.
Edit 2: alright, I actually posted them elsewhere: http://adom.brinkster.net/forum/mess...ge=1&tmp=58742

01-06-2014 06:11 PM
Ancient Member
Sami's idea seems to be the perfect solution, actually..

Quote Originally Posted by Zultheer
Sorry, I can't believe that. What kind evidence are you able to bring out? The tests I conducted justify my verdict. You can find them on this forum as I published them on the Nezur account.
Are you referring to http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread...03-Shop-prices ? I don't know about charisma because I never play males, but cloaks of adornment, helms of beauty, and various other Ap modifying things (AMW) have a very noticeable effect on female shop prices. My evidence is my cumulative ADOM experience including my most recent game in p20 where some artifact sellling prices jumped by several thousand gold after taking off AMW and equipping a cloak of adornment (+12 Ap) (and same for some stuff I wanted to buy). This matches my experience in 1.1.1. It's very easy to check yourself by simply getting to the pyramid on a female character.

01-06-2014 07:58 PM
Junior Member
Not really. I found the results on a different forum. Please take a look at the edits I made to the original post.

01-06-2014 08:11 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Zultheer
Not really. I found the results on a different forum. Please take a look at the edits I made to the original post.
I won't vouch in totality for 1.1.1 (it's probably been over a year since I played it, but it matches the prereleases from my recollection), but I just had some experience yesterday with this as a female drake duelist (Ap was naturally in the low tens). I got a discount on some nice cursed mithril plate mail (+12 PV) from Waldy just by equipping a cloak of adornment [only reason I could afford it] and got a huge boost in prices offered when I was selling artifacts/other items to Waldy and sell-robbing HMV and Barnabas. I'll take some screenshots when I get home (only Waldy because HMV/Barnabas are dead, but c'est la vie), but it didn't require me to leave the level or anything like that, so Ap definitely affects shop prices significantly for females (again - no idea about males since I don't play them).

Edit: I've read the RGRA links now and it's a bit more clear, but....that seems to say that there is a clear correlation between Ap and price, so now I'm just confused by your points. There is probably a bug, but to call it "nonexistent" or "minor" seems very much off the mark.

04-22-2014 08:33 PM
The Creator
Ok, I have changed it once more according to Samis proposal. We'll see how this works out.

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