Dwarven Halls and their DL
issueid=2838 04-19-2014 06:54 AM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by asdf: 54
Dwarven Halls and their DL

Currently Dwarven Halls is impossible to pass to 95-98% of the characters who are in progress for animated forest quest (100% if unspoiled), and they are death trap to everyone - http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread...Halls-are-neat

Danger level of the DH should be reduced from 40/45 to 24/29 (if DL:30 stops DL:10 from spawning - it is too much already). Difficulty levels will be roughly preserved - "occasional instakill monster" vs "many dangerous monsters, occasional very dangerous monster".

Alternatively, take a look on http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2603 - current playtest rough difficulty table:
DL 15 - old DL 25
DL 20 - old DL 30
DL 25 - old DL 40
DL 29 - old DL 45
(dl 30 was casino)
DL 31 - old DL 50

It may be too steep and too hard at the end. Further playtest needed, but troll fighter character with help of the roller and fire orb with a decent damage (~45 St, ~35 To, ~60 damage, 50/30, 110 speed) have troubles survivng on DL:31 already. It is quite sad if players would be forced to scum BUGVIL for 200 speed and use axe of the minotaur emperor for 150+ damage just to clear lower CoC levels.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2838
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 3
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 22
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 22
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




04-19-2014 08:17 AM
Ancient Member
I agree this is a big problem, and I don't think reducing the DL is sufficient to fix it. I think (always thought, before seeing it actually) that the solution is to go back to a monster distribution much more similar to the traditional one. With goblins in the deep CoC and all that.

DH was always my favorite place in ADOM, and its charm was that you could maybe have a clear passage, or maybe find a couple of really epic monsters out of your league. Sometimes you could outwit them and even kill one, sometimes you would die a gruesome death.

If you reduce DH to DL 30 what you will have is lots of very powerful (but probably not epic) monsters but that's not the charm of DH.

More in general, if what you link is going to be the typical layout of a deep CoC level, I think the game will be more monotonous and less fun than before. A large part of what made an emperor lich or a greater titan epic was their rarity. If people move around killing greater titans left and right in the deep CoC (and they will - if the deep CoC is now too hard, people would just have to scum more), they will no longer be epic, they will be routine.

I think a much, much slighter change in monster distribution would have sufficed - e.g. doubling the relative frequency of monsters within 5 DL's of the dungeon's DL, leaving all the others intact (which was more or less what JellySlayer initially had suggested IIRC).

If the current model is going to be used as a base anyway, I think the largest disbalancing factor is the fact that rarity of monsters that are much below the dungeon's DL is dropped almost to zero. Yes, I know, some people complained about goblins in the deep CoC and all that. But to make epic monsters epic and not routine, to make those levels feel varied, to keep the mystery in places like DH (will a highly powerful creature be in the next room or not?) you need to have that. Maybe somewhat less than before, but I have always thought we do need goblins in the deep CoC.

04-19-2014 09:04 AM
The Creator
No, if fun is destroyed (as those links indicate) we'll brutally change the adjustments around until they are fun again. I'll look at it more deeply based on the feedback available.

04-19-2014 11:38 AM
Ancient Member
I would like to playtest first, for some murdering goblins is fun for others that is very boring, for others challenge is fun and exciting. As far as the majority of roguelike players are concerned roguelikes should be challenging and not easy. I'll provide more feedback once I've seen these areas.

04-19-2014 11:47 AM
Qui Qui is online now
Senior Member
Well goblins on D:40 never made any sense tbh, how would they not get eaten there? In the previous versions the game past ToEF was really easy, and outside of temples/vaults/cat lord there rarely was any danger. If now it will change, that's good. And we'll be able to ask for more nice things without making the game trivial.

DH on the other hand might need toning down. Dangerous alternative != death trap ;)

04-19-2014 09:50 PM
The Creator
I have adjusted the monster distribution for p22 for a gradual decline (6% per level of difference between the minimum monster level and the current level). Additionally the DH have a new special treatment to hopefully restore their flavor.

04-20-2014 01:17 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
DH was always my favorite place in ADOM, and its charm was that you could maybe have a clear passage, or maybe find a couple of really epic monsters out of your league. Sometimes you could outwit them and even kill one, sometimes you would die a gruesome death.
Definitely! One of those areas where you really have to play stealthfully, it almost feels like it's out of a film or a book, trying to find the exit as quickly and as quietly as possibly, trying not to attract the attention of the resident greater moloch or dragon or titan or whatever. The animated forest is such a chore to go through even with invisibility but asdf's screenshot makes it look fairly manditory until the next version. Actually I don't think i've been through AF in about 8 years, that's how much of a chore it is. Rather have a quick exciting death/quest completion!

04-20-2014 02:38 PM
Ancient Member
I'm looking forward to what the Dwarven Halls tweak is, my personal feeling is that the current danger level is fine, but that the monster count is way too high. Currently if you have some luck wrt teleportation control, invisibility, magic mapping you might still be able to sneak through there at lowish player character level. With only two potions of invisibility and magic mapping and no teleportation control I was able to get to DH:2, but a Diamond Golem was generated 2 tiles from the upstairs. So, I wasn't taking any further actions on that level.

But Yeah, it is scary now with a biggish count of deadly monsters generated for an experience level 16 character.

Of course if one is not lucky with finding these items and/or intrinsics, it is always possible to take the safer alternative through the Animated Forest.

04-20-2014 03:31 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
Currently if you have some luck wrt teleportation control, invisibility, magic mapping you might still be able to sneak through there at lowish player character level.
Currently if you have some teleportation control and invisibility - teleport yourself through the forest. Billion times safer.

04-20-2014 06:28 PM
Ancient Member
The dwarven halls must always remain a temptation, it also must always remain a very dangerous place for lowish levelled characters. I agree at the moment it just chases you right away as you enter it, that is why I'm suggesting a reduced monster count.

The Creator has already tweaked it for the next release.
Let's see what the tweak is, I say.

04-20-2014 06:33 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
The dwarven halls must always remain a temptation, it also must always remain a very dangerous place for lowish levelled characters. I agree at the moment is just chases you right away as you enter it.
Let's see what the tweak is, I say.
My point is that you should be able to descend through Dwarven Halls without a source of controlled teleportation, otherwise it makes no sense to even go there (except for occasional instakill from DL:40 monster one step away from the stairs).

04-20-2014 06:42 PM
Ancient Member
We must remember what the relation between the Animated Forest and Dwarven Halls are. If you make it trivial to pass through the Dwarven Halls then the Animated Forest serves little purpose.

04-20-2014 07:07 PM
Ancient Member
Stingray, you are missing the point YET AGAIN.

In its current state, it makes no sense for someone to ever go through DH - _any_ time you would be safe going through DH, you'd be 1000x safer going through AF. Yes, DH should not be trivial otherwise people would pick that every time because (imo) AF still needs some tweaking. That doesn't mean that the current situation leaves just one meaningful way to complete the Thrundarr quest: AF.

asdf is right in that DH should be able to be passed w/o controlled TP most of the time (i.e. at least 70%). Otherwise it would almost never make any sense to go there.

04-20-2014 08:18 PM
Ancient Member
Stingray, the thing is that (most of us think that) the DF-AH balance was great as it was. DH were difficult enough that going through them was a meaningful decision, and could mean death, but could also mean a success with enough skill and luck. No one is proposing to make DF easier than they already were, just to try that the change don't affect much a part of the game that was widely perceived to work very well.

04-20-2014 08:49 PM
Ancient Member
You must remember that DH was too easy as monster generation was not occurring correctly there. asdf and Sirtheta are proposing that it be made easier. DL 24/29 as opposed to DL 40/45. 70% chance of success.

The whole point is that is it stupid to go there, the risk far outweighs the reward. Death of your character, because you are too lazy to venture through the Forest vs completing the quest. It was created as a Deathtrap. Adom is full of places and thing that try to screw you over and the Dwarven Halls are one of them. That is the point you are missing SirTheta.

04-20-2014 08:54 PM
Ancient Member
You're being stupid again and do not understand how the quest is supposed to work.

04-21-2014 05:05 AM
Ancient Member
I never enjoy getting through the forest. In versions that aren't pre21 I would try the DH, cautiously, and if something too dangerous was generated *then* I'd do the forest. So in pre21 I was actually making a decision, and I used both routes, depending on the situation. That sounds pretty good to me.

04-22-2014 08:30 AM
Senior Member
Can't comment on the new changes as I haven't reached AF/DH yet, but I would almost always try my luck with DH just because going through AF was a major pain. If I didn't have a means to teleport or a way to detect monsters I wouldn't venture far from the stairs though - I'd say about half the time I'd turn back and go through the AF, so I enjoyed the difficulty as it was.

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