Small buff to air temple minions
issueid=2926 05-03-2014 12:06 AM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by aerol: 68
Small buff to air temple minions
A little buff goes a long way

This RFE is simply to request granting guaranteed air temple minions (air grues, air demons, air elementals, vapor rats) the ability to see invisible. It would make the air temple less of a walk in the park by increasing the possibility of the PC getting swamped and surrounded.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2926
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority Unknown
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 22
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 23
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 4
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




05-03-2014 01:26 PM
Ancient Member
I thought all grues already see invis. Maybe the air ones don't.
I disagree with vapor rats though. Every elemental temple has some monsters that see invisibility and some that don't.
Giving it to grues and elementals seems sufficient for me.

05-03-2014 02:21 PM
Ancient Member
It should just be given to air demons. That's the big one. Grues/elementals optional - there aren't many of them.

05-03-2014 11:16 PM
Senior Member
Only stone grues see invisible afaik as of now. I updated the original text to include air demons.

05-06-2014 09:57 AM
The Creator
Fixed.

05-06-2014 05:19 PM
Senior Member
Do the votes for/against in these RFEs get read? :)

05-06-2014 05:30 PM
Ancient Member
Votes have been publicly stated to not matter even in extreme cases - discussion in RFE / what TB thinks is what matters.

3 votes against also means nothing...

05-06-2014 06:28 PM
Senior Member
Maybe the vote for/against feature should be removed from this forum?
As it is now, it's confusing to have a feedback mechanic, give feedback using it, and have that publically available and viewable feedback ignored as a rule. Seems a bit daft to even have it here. If I couldn't vote no, I might post about how and why I disagree, instead of feeling that my reasons for disagreeing have already been mentioned in the thread, I have nothing new to add, and just want to chime in with my preference...

05-06-2014 07:08 PM
Senior Member
Very often the suggestions are a bit beyond a simple for and against vote. 3 votes against but only 2 discussion posts saying anything about the RFE and they were partial agreements starting what they did and didn't like about it. TB can do what he likes, but I think he's more likely to listen to those who've fine more than tick a box.

Anyway I thought all grues cash see invisible. Water and fire types do anyway. I know they're not exactly tough opponents but the chaos servants that appear in the temples see invisible too. Maybe we should see more greater servants if standard ones are too weak?

05-06-2014 07:11 PM
Ancient Member
Sylph, it's TB's game. He created it, hence The Creator. If he feels some opinion about the game is right, even if hundreds of lesser beings have other opinions, then he is right and everyone else is wrong.

This one of the things i like most about this game. If you have a problem with that, just go make your own game :D. We will gladly play it (if it's any good ofc).

05-06-2014 08:15 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by sylph
Maybe the vote for/against feature should be removed from this forum?
As it is now, it's confusing to have a feedback mechanic, give feedback using it, and have that publically available and viewable feedback ignored as a rule. Seems a bit daft to even have it here. If I couldn't vote no, I might post about how and why I disagree, instead of feeling that my reasons for disagreeing have already been mentioned in the thread, I have nothing new to add, and just want to chime in with my preference...
Well, I don't know why you disagree, but (a) 3 votes against is a paltry amount - some RFEs have upwards of 20 votes. How is anyone supposed to take that into account? It's just impossible. (b) you're wrong - the air temple minions are by far the weakest of any temple minions, even without see invis, compared to the PC's strength at that point in the game. It's really kind of absurd. Adding see invis to some of the minions doesn't completely fix it, but it is a huge step in the right direction - for the Air Temple.

05-07-2014 12:21 PM
The Creator
Quote Originally Posted by sylph
Maybe the vote for/against feature should be removed from this forum?
As it is now, it's confusing to have a feedback mechanic, give feedback using it, and have that publically available and viewable feedback ignored as a rule. Seems a bit daft to even have it here. If I couldn't vote no, I might post about how and why I disagree, instead of feeling that my reasons for disagreeing have already been mentioned in the thread, I have nothing new to add, and just want to chime in with my preference...
Hi!

I don't want to annoy people (consciously that is ;-) ) but my decision was based on the simple fact that (a) invisibility and the element of air always have been somewhat related in ADOM and (b) that IMHO it makes quite a bit of sense that mighty beings which are closely attuned to the element of air can "sense" disturbances in the force... err... air and thus see invisible.

In summary I was less interested in fixing balance but more interested in adding more consistence to the game (at least how I understand it).

The whole issue of "balancing" is a very touchy one and I'm strongly opposed to overbalancing. I can see the reasoning and benefit behind nerfing various farming options and I also do not mind to remove "features" that are too illogical but I do not want to overbalance the game. Randomness always has been an important element.

And personally I don't think that I ignore votes "as a rule" - but 3 really indicates "little interest by most" and thus I follow my own gut feeling. Especially when - as in this case - little argument is given to supplement the votes. I usually read all discussions regarding bugs and RFEs closely (if they do not derail into heated and boring arguments) and good arguments influence my decisions heavily. Anonymous votes much less so.

Just to give you an explanation. You are free to file another RFE with a good line of argumentation and then we'll see what happens ;-)

05-07-2014 05:20 PM
Ancient Member
Personally I use this rule on the bug tracker:
Always comment something if you vote "no". Voting "yes" for little things and even serious is ok in my books without commenting, because the necessary arguments are usually in the original text of the RFE.

I think someone else mentioned this rule somewhere and it's a good one if you want your opinion to be counted.

05-07-2014 07:29 PM
The Creator
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
Personally I use this rule on the bug tracker:
Always comment something if you vote "no". Voting "yes" for little things and even serious is ok in my books without commenting, because the necessary arguments are usually in the original text of the RFE.

I think someone else mentioned this rule somewhere and it's a good one if you want your opinion to be counted.
I fully agree with this rule and totally support it. Opposition usually needs explanations while proposals usually include arguments. So a "yes" easily accounts for a "yeah, I have the same opinion" response while a "no" really deserves an explanation.

Thanks!

05-07-2014 09:31 PM
Senior Member
My point, which a couple of posters seem to be missing completely, was nothing to do with whether TB should have power of ADOM or not (for the record, the fact that it's one coherent vision is everything I like about ADOM too).
I simply asked whether votes were ignored or not. SirTheta told me categorically that they were ignored (which I had heard before from other posters), but TB clarified that they were not - seems a valid question to ask really.

05-07-2014 09:42 PM
Senior Member
.dp

05-07-2014 09:48 PM
Senior Member
Why I voted 'no':
I feel invisibility (spell, item and potion) is weak enough already (intrinsic invisibility is probably the opposite). If it continues to be nerfed it will end up not being useful. Sneaking into the air temple and cutting out it's 'heart' (Yuglash) feels very thematically clever to me, and I'd hate to see it go. I find it quite poignant that invisibility can be used to conquer the air temple! It's kind of like using magic to clear the mana temple - I always felt that perhaps magic would work really well in such an elemental heart of magic, and similarly can imagine 'air magic' being effective in the air temple - it feels like the right place for invisibility to work, for me.
Moreover, though, one of the things I like about ADOM is the fact that a player can feel that she is overcoming 20-foot tall demonic dragon beasts by using mortal intelligence or trickery. Metaphorically throwing sand in their eyes is, to me, both more fun and more believable, than overcoming every adversary by overpowering them. it's also better as a legend. I find Prometheus tricking the gods, Hercules cauterising the heads from the lernaean hydra, Perseus using a reflection to negate the power of Medusa, or Theseus' 'ball-of-wool trick' in the labyrinth, far more compelling stories specifically for their cleverness/trickery.
Hell, the very term 'Achilles heel' came directly from the notion of every great mythic adversary having weaknesses.


Not to mention, if I wanted to grind my way to power in a roleplaying game, I'd play world of warcraft or diablo.

In short, the more 'clever tricks' that are removed from ADOM, the more it resembles every other snooze-fest grindy RPG on the market, and that to me is the very antithesis to everything ADOM stands for.

This is, to note, the same reason I voted against the removal of boss weaknesses months ago, the same reason I voted against a nerf to potions of cure poison on the snake from beyond, and the same reason I voted against normalising monster danger distribution (that is, I'd rather face an ogre magus early and have to figure out intelligently how to get out alive, than to have a smooth grind from rat to balor followed by a victory message)

05-08-2014 01:11 AM
Junior Member
Would it make sense to have fire magic be extra effective in the fire temple, sylph? :P

Back on topic, invisibility and the air temple make a lot of sense together... perhaps shouldn't some of the monsters (air grues, maybe) be invisible? Seems that would make more sense thematically than just giving them the power to see invisibility, but that's just my opinion.

05-08-2014 10:54 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by sylph
I find it quite poignant that invisibility can be used to conquer the air temple! It's kind of like using magic to clear the mana temple - I always felt that perhaps magic would work really well in such an elemental heart of magic, and similarly can imagine 'air magic' being effective in the air temple - it feels like the right place for invisibility to work, for me.
Moreover, though, one of the things I like about ADOM is the fact that a player can feel that she is overcoming 20-foot tall demonic dragon beasts by using mortal intelligence or trickery.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with that last bit... but your argument itself is flawed.

If there's going to be something that is effective in the Air temple, it should be stealth - the skill of moving without disturbing things around you, without making a sound, without drawing attention to yourself. Invisibility is a crude method of hiding from sight but still being plainly visible to those that know what to look for - in fact, I'd assert that most "see invisible" monsters do so by spotting your trail, rather than actually seeing invisible. It's stealth that is true skill in the field of air.

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