Analisys of current monster power, danger level and rarity
issueid=2928 05-04-2014 12:20 PM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by asdf: 54
Analisys of current monster power, danger level and rarity

TL;DR list of proposed changes for the early-mid game monster distribution (justification below) -

Berserker monster line
Berserker - DL 4 > DL 6
Berserker Lord - DL 10, unchanged
Berserker Prince - DL 12 > DL 16
Berserker King - DL 16 > DL 24, Rarity 50 > Rarity 25
Berserker Emperor - DL 21 > DL 35

Werewolf monster line
Werewolf - DL 5, unchanged
Werewolf Lord - DL 12 > DL 18
Werewolf King - outside of scope of this RFE, but DL 30 > DL 35 appox

Mimic monster line
Mimic - DL 7, unchanged
Greater Mimic - DL 12, unchanged
Master Mimic - DL 16 > DL 20
Mimic Hivemind - DL 22 > DL 28

Ogre monster line
Ogre - DL 3, unchanged
Ogre Magus - DL 6 > DL 9
Ogre Lord - DL 15, unchanged
Ogre King - DL 20 > DL 24

Large Gnoll - Rarity 100 > Rarity 25
Goblin Berserker - Rarity 25 > Rarity 100

Flesh Golem - DL 7 > DL 8

Brown Bear - DL 9 > DL 6

Ice Lizard - DL 9 > DL 11

Fomorian Giant - DL 12 > DL 9

Stone Giant - DL 15 > DL 14
Shambling Mound - Rarity 100 > Rarity 25

Troll Chief - DL 17 > DL 14

Living Wall - Rarity 10 > Rarity 2

Frost Giant - DL 24 > DL 19
Fire Giant - DL 25 > DL 20

Chaos Servant - Rarity 10 > Rarity 100
Greater Chaos Servant - Rarity 25 > Rarity 100

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Goals -
1) Find out-of-level monsters, be it exceptionally weak DL 30 monsters or exceptionally strong DL 1 monsters
2) Find discrepancy in monster power and rarity of the monsters - assuming that more rare creatures in the same DL should be generally more dangerous
3) Suggest adjustments to the monsters

DL 4:
Out-of-level monsters - Berserker.
Out-of-rarity monsters - Large Gnoll.

Berserker have a huge damage and HP for level 4 monster, greatly outperforming any other monster - he is comparable to strong level 7 Outlaw Leader. Danger level of 6-7 would be much more appropriate.
Large Gnoll is 4 times more common after recent p22 change - while he is one of the strongest level 4 monsters already. Goblin Berserker instead of him would be good candidate on "common monster" of this DL.

DL 6:
Out-of-level monsters - Ogre Magus.

Ogre Magus have - best combat stats for level 6 monster, _and_ invisibility, _and_ regeneration, _and_ long-range targeted spell. Even though he is really rare, he will be in a better company with level 9 monsters, when PC's usually start to gather some items to generally resist such a special monsters.

DL 7:
Out-of-level monsters - Flesh Golem.

Even though he does not have PV, he hits quite hard and he is tough to kill - he is probally on par or even better then Clay Golem at level 9. This monster should be atleast level 8.

DL 9:
Out-of-level monsters - Ice Lizard, Brown Bear

Ice Lizards have slightly stronger fighter stats then usual monsters on this level and they have ice breath, which is hard to resist early. They are not really extraordinary strong, but strong enough to feel good at level 10-11.
Brown Bears are more rare, have weaker stats then Grizzly Bears, and yet they are still same level 9. They could serve a lot better as a rare strong level 6 monster instead of Ogre Magus.

DL 12:
Out-of-level monsters - Werewolf Lord, Berserker Prince, Fomorian Giant

Werewolf Lord dwarfs other level 12 monsters in combat power, and he is capable of filling a room with summoners. Even discarding that, sheer combat power is enough to put him on par with best level 16-18 monsters. He is most certanly does not belong to level 12 at all.
Berserker Prince have the same problem as a Berserker (and whole Berserker line as a whole) - they are strong. They are really strong for their level. Level 16 will suit him a lot better.
Fomorian Giant lack any special abilities and they lack combat power - they should be level 9 monsters, standing near Dark Orcs and Master Swordsmans.

DL 14,15:
Out-of-rarity monsters - Shambling Mound.

Shambling Mounds is another example of best monster in their DL, yet most common monster in their DL now. There is quite elegant solution - return Shambling Mound to original rarity, and lower Stone Giant level from 15 to 14 - he is not really that strong compared to others, and there are two common monsters on level 15.
Alternatively there are Chaos Servants/Greater Chaos Servants, which could fill "normal monster" part a lot better.

DL 16-20:
Out-of-level monsters - Berserker King (16), Master Mimic (16), Troll Chief (17), Ogre King (20)
Out-of-rarity monsters - Living Wall, Berserker King.

Berserker King - as usual, way too strong in combat stats for his level. Even level 24 will be okay for him, but lets be moderate and say that he belongs to level 21 atleast with old rarity, instead of berserker emperor. Insisting to preserve 50 rarity, as he have now - thats level 24 for sure.
Master Mimic - paralyzes, armor-pierces, blind rages and have enough HP to pull everything. Partially offsets by his rarity, but still level 20+ is more appropriate to him.
Troll Chief - weaker then a Troll King, but have same level as him. Troll King itself is a quite weak king compared to others - so atleast level reduction for Troll Chief to 14 would do.
Ogre King - tough, strong and not so rare monster, with stats of ~22 level one.

Living Wall - insanely strong for his level, same as a Wall Beast. However Wall Beast have rarity 2, which made it ok - but Living Wall have rarity 10, making it not-ok. It should be 2 too.

DL 21-27:
Out-of-level monsters - Berserker Emperor (21), Mimic Hivemind (22), Frost Giant (24), Fire Giant (25)

To introduce you how stupidly strong Berserker line of monsters are - lets say that Berserker Emperor (21) could probably put a fair fight to a Greater Fire Elemental (45). No further comments needed, this monster should be pushed atleast into 30-35 level range.
Mimic Hiveminds - same as Master Mimics, just worse. Level 26 or Level 28 would put him in a great company.
Frost Giant - he is a lot weaker then Frost Giant Berserker, but have a same level 24, despite being A LOT weaker.
Fire Giant - almost the same as Frost Giant, just a little bit stronger. This pair of giants should be reduced to level 18/19 or 19/20, and switched with Ogre King instead.

DL 28-32, aka "The Wall" problem.

Let me introduce "The Wall" problem, which is probably intended and a good design decision in 1.1.1 times, but not with new quest being added and monster distribution being changed.

The Wall - A HUGE amount of end-game monsters dropped on a player at once, right after the wall of flames at DL 27, which allows PC access to DL 28+ dungeons.

Basically everything after level 28 is end-game, with occasional single strong monster added every 5 levels. Ancient dragons, unicorns, werewolf kings and ogre emperors, master liches. Majority of the monster lines ends at the 28-32 level. There is a need for major rework here to maintain flow of the game - this will be discuissed later in a separate RFE among with DL 28+ monsters.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2928
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 3
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 23
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 23
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 5
Votes against this feature 2
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




05-04-2014 10:38 PM
Ancient Member
I like pretty much all these changes. +1.

05-04-2014 11:20 PM
Ancient Member
The most notable of these I think are Ogre Magus and Werewolf lord. At their respective levels, these are very, very dangerous monsters. A character running into an Ogre Magus in the Puppy Cave or a Werewolf lord just below DT are going to get slaughtered.

05-04-2014 11:34 PM
I'm definitely okay with Ogre Magus being moved up a few DLs, they're deadly if you meet one early on, especially as a melee character.

05-05-2014 06:41 AM
Senior Member
But part of the charm of the game is that there are some out-of-level monsters, isn't it? If none of these things show up until your character is ready to handle them, what's the fun?

I know that if a character with 16/2 armor runs into a berserker, I should use arrows or run, or if cornered berserk myself and hope to get him before he gets me. I don't see a problem. Different monsters call for different tactics, and some monsters shoud be dangerous for their level.

Same with ogre magi--run if you don't have cold resistance, or trap them in a corridor so you can melee their square consistently. But probably run!

05-05-2014 08:05 AM
Ancient Member
I agree with Ben, there certainly is a lot of idiocy in playing a game that you will allways win.

05-05-2014 08:14 AM
Ancient Member
I mostly agree with BenMathiesen, that having some imbalances in monster level vs monster strength is fun.

Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
The most notable of these I think are Ogre Magus and Werewolf lord. At their respective levels, these are very, very dangerous monsters. A character running into an Ogre Magus in the Puppy Cave or a Werewolf lord just below DT are going to get slaughtered.
These are the only two in the list that really feel weirdly out of depth to me, perhaps too much for the "fun factor".

05-05-2014 09:04 AM
Senior Member
However, I do appreciate that you went through the analysis! Ogre mages especially could perhaps use a slight adjustment--you sometimes meet them in places like PC2 and VD3, which is definitely instakill territory.

05-05-2014 09:12 AM
Ancient Member
I don't know. On the one hand, it is true that some out-of-depth monsters like ogre magi have always been there and this can actually be fun - it adds to the variety of the game and to the ways the RNG can screw you, which is good.

On the other hand, the game has mechanisms to generate out-of-depth monsters (mixed tension rooms, "You feel danger", etc.) so maybe it would make more sense to have a more balanced monster lineup, and then use those mechanisms (buffing them or increasing their frequency if necessary) to generate the RNG screwups.

So I don't know, anyway it's good to inform TB of which monsters are more or less powerful than their actual DL so that he can make the design decisions.

I generally like the changes to monster distribution in p22, although something that I don't like that much is that berserker kings seem to be all over the place. It's a bit weird to go around killing so many royalty.

05-05-2014 10:18 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by BenMathiesen
But part of the charm of the game is that there are some out-of-level monsters, isn't it? If none of these things show up until your character is ready to handle them, what's the fun?

I know that if a character with 16/2 armor runs into a berserker, I should use arrows or run, or if cornered berserk myself and hope to get him before he gets me. I don't see a problem. Different monsters call for different tactics, and some monsters shoud be dangerous for their level.

Same with ogre magi--run if you don't have cold resistance, or trap them in a corridor so you can melee their square consistently. But probably run!
I've paid attention to it.

For example, Wall Beasts - they are _deadly_ to level 12 characters. But they are also excessively rare - they spawn just with chance 2, compared to most normal monsters chance 100! Take berserkers for example - they have rarity 50, and they are way stronger then anything else on their level. Compare them to barbarians - they are a lot weaker, and they are rarer - 25 rarity. Something inconsistent there, dont you think?

In my opinion, only rarity 2 monsters could be allowed to make "run away from it" impression on most equal level characters.
Rarity 10 monsters should be a hard fight one on one, but they should be beatable! Examples of rarity 10 monsters - Ogre Magus, Revenant, Animated Armor.
Rarity 25 should be a hard monsters, but character could dispose several of them with care if he pays attention or uses wands/spells/special arrows/some battle tricks - Green Hag, Tarantula, Chaos Plague Bearer, Fire Drake, Ratling Warlord
Rarity 50 and Rarity 100+ - just normal/easy monsters respectively.

Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble
I mostly agree with BenMathiesen, that having some imbalances in monster level vs monster strength is fun.

These are the only two in the list that really feel weirdly out of depth to me, perhaps too much for the "fun factor".
There is a lot of imbalances, i've tried to catch only the most obvious ones. ADOM is really well balanced in that respect usually.

Everyone knows of instakilling Ogre Magus, which appears when you dont have any counterplay and probably wandering around with unidentified inventory yet.
p22 showed other imbalances, which were previously buried under the piles of goblins and rats - i'd name a few monsters for you. Werewolf Lord, Berserker King, Diamond Golem, Titan, Great Karmic Wyrm, Greater Titan. Early game is still quite ok and mostly fun - but it could be improved. But when you will reach mid-game or late-game, you will see those discrepancies in monster distribution a lot clearer, and they will be a lot more annoying.

05-05-2014 10:34 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble
I mostly agree with BenMathiesen, that having some imbalances in monster level vs monster strength is fun.
Dont you think that this should be shown in monster rarity? Meeting an Berserker King, for example, is quite challenging. Meeting several of them on _every level your pass_? Tedious and unfun. If you want to think which existing monster could serve as an another dangerous out-of-level rare encounter, or what new monsters could be designed to fill this role - please, open a topic in general discuission, i'll provide you with current statistics.

05-05-2014 11:06 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by asdf
Take berserkers for example - they have rarity 50, and they are way stronger then anything else on their level. Compare them to barbarians - they are a lot weaker, and they are rarer - 25 rarity. Something inconsistent there, dont you think?
I agree with your general analysis, but this particular case is kinda different. Barbarians show up often in the wilderness instead, usually I encounter more barbarians than berserkers.
And that rarer monsters have to be more powerful is not a general rule, right? It's desirable of course, but some special exceptions are always good.

05-05-2014 11:19 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Moeba
And that rarer monsters have to be more powerful is not a general rule, right? It's desirable of course, but some special exceptions are always good.
There are quite a lot of exceptions in mid-late game in p22 currently. Its tedious and anti-fun.

05-05-2014 01:36 PM
Ancient Member
Remember that the monster spawn rate will be reduced back to normal levels in pre23. Pre22 is interesting in this respect because of how much it over-emphasizes monster DL compared to other versions.

05-06-2014 08:14 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
Remember that the monster spawn rate will be reduced back to normal levels in pre23. Pre22 is interesting in this respect because of how much it over-emphasizes monster DL compared to other versions.
Yeah, it's going to become boring again with deserted dungeons. Plenty of space to run away.

05-06-2014 10:39 AM
The Creator
I liked most of them. Adjusted.

05-06-2014 01:20 PM
Ancient Member
Well, no point in playing this game anymore. Have fun guys.

05-06-2014 03:27 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
Well, no point in playing this game anymore. Have fun guys.
You'll be back :)

05-06-2014 03:29 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by asdf
Dont you think that this should be shown in monster rarity? Meeting an Berserker King, for example, is quite challenging. Meeting several of them on _every level your pass_? Tedious and unfun. If you want to think which existing monster could serve as an another dangerous out-of-level rare encounter, or what new monsters could be designed to fill this role - please, open a topic in general discuission, i'll provide you with current statistics.
If it isn't too much work for you, I'd be quite interested in seeing the statistics.

05-06-2014 04:36 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
If it isn't too much work for you, I'd be quite interested in seeing the statistics.
http://pastebin.com/V42vLtrU

Only basic stats, you need to account for special abilities yourself. Better consult AdomDBbot on IRC.

Sorting and calculating is possible with Excel or any other spreadsheet software. I recommend sorting by level and rarity.

Also: http://folk.ntnu.no/houeland/adom/results/datadump (not mine, dated from 1.1.1 and does not show everything)

05-06-2014 04:54 PM
Ancient Member
Thanks.

+ Reply