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Talent Overhall

06-03-2014 02:48 PM

Krough Firender Krough Firender is offline

Junior Member

Number of reported issues by Krough Firender: 5

Talent Overhall

Suggestions for Talents

Most talents never see the light of the Draklar Chain. Even among all the classes, many are rarely used. Here are my suggestions for revising the talent list so that more than just a handful of the same talents are taken every game. I know they are not all perfect ideas, but talents have not gotten a lot of love during the resurrection, and they are in desperate need. Currently, over 3/4ths of the list is never taken, and while there is the illusion of a plethora of options, only the PV line, parts of the magic line, Treasure Hunter, archery line, and the occasional oddball are taken. I would like to see more options for all classes (I think variety adds fun and flavor to the game), especially for melee fighters and casters.

The “Affinity” talents: Currently: rarely taken. Dangerous to take because you might switch weapons, and the benefit isn’t good enough to prevent this. Suggestion: Add “Aggressive” as a prereq for the other Affinities, and give it -5% weapon skill marks to lvl. Link to normal affinities. After that allow the “Melee Weapon Master” talent, but alter it. Make these the only prereq’s, in addition to it not taking affect until you have the “affinity with” weapon talent. So if you are a duelist with a rapier, and you want to make sure you spend the whole game with swords, take “Aggressive” (-5% marks needed, +1 to-hit) -> “Affinity with Swords” (+2 to-hit with swords (I’d add +1DV)) -> Melee Weapon Master (+3 to-hit, +2 dmg, +1DV (-5% marks needed), Only apply to weapons that the char. has “Affinity with” (in this case, swords)). Overall, -10% marks, (+6, +2), and +2 DV with swords. This makes melee a little more comparable to the archer’s line. This way it would be reasonable for a melee char to actually take these skills instead of the defensive ones, or the quick line. Taking just “Aggressive/Affinity with Melee” can also be an option for casters because of the xp% benefit, which they need.
So, a standard aggressive melee build would be “Aggressive” -> “Affinity with ____” -> “Weapon Master”. But there need to be more options for melee fighters, especially if they don't want to lock into one specific weapon type.

"Dirty Fighter". +1 to-hit, +1 dmg, resistant to disarming attacks, small chance of confusing target. Prereq. "Aggressive", Dex 18+, Str 15+
“Perceptive Fighter”. +1 to-hit, and 30% increased effect from Find Weakness. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Find Weakness 65+, and Pe:15+
“Weapon Finesse” (Stolen from D&D). Dexterity now gives a damage bonus. This would be a nice option for Elvish Fighters. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Dex. 18+
“Heavy Hitter”. +2 Melee Damage, increased chance to stun. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Str: 20+
“Cleave”. Grants ability (ctr-x) to Cleave, hitting up to three adjacent targets. -3 to-hit and costs 1800 EP. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Str. 18+ (Maybe Courage 50+?)

The Attribute Talents: Currently: taken only as prereqs. I like this, but it is very limited in value, and costs an entire talent at the start of the game. Suggestion. Have them increase your potential by 2, and passively train your stat (similar to how Athletics trains).

Hardy line: Currently: only the first is taken b/c of prereq to tough skin. Suggestion: Make Hardy give +4 hp, Very +8, and then Extremely Hardy increase hp by 6%.This makes them much more appealing to warrior classes instead of just taking the first, and then the PV line.

Skilled line: Currently: avoided. Minimal effect, no prereq, and wastes a talent. Suggestion: “Skilled” increases skill increase die by 1 level (2d3 becomes 2d4), and increases the chances of theoretical increases through the game. “Very Skilled” increases base skills rank by 4, and increases skill increase die by 1 level, as well as theoretical training. “Extremely Skilled” increases max skill level by 25% (100 cap obviously), and increases skill increase dice by 1 level.

“Natural Apprentice” +1 skill increase per level (or every other). Prereq. “Learned”, “Skilled”

Magic Talents: Currently: Charged, Extended Magic, and Strong Magic are the only useful talents in this line. Suggestion: Have “Strong” and “Mighty Aura” increase PP and PP regen by 5% and 8% (total of 13%). Have “Strong Magic” increase hp from healing as well, removing “Strong Healer”.

“Potent Magic”. +2 dmg with spells, and 20% increases chance to not be “shrugged off” by resistant creatures”. Prereq. “Strong Magic”, Wi 18+
“Quick Caster”, -15% energy points for casting spells. Prereq. “Potent Aura”
"Dual-Casting", ctr-x to cast two spells simultaneously, for 1.8x PP. If they are the same type of spell (bolt or ball) they should extend the range/aoe. Prereq. "Potent Aura", "Quick Caster"
“Blood Caster” (wishful thinking) Removing penalties for using life force as PP. -> “Blood Magic” increasing dmg when you use HP by 50% -> “Blood Mage” Set PP to 0, half the cost of blood casting, and Concentration and "Charged" increases HP regen.

Book Casting line: Book casting needs to be changed in general. I like the concept and imagery, but it doesn’t work in practice. 1: Books are too heavy (especially for frail wizards), 2: you need spell xp, 3: it costs more, and 4: you generally have enough castings, so there simply is no need to cast from books. If you made book casting do more damage and still give xp, then we would be in business.

Wealthy line: Currently: Nobody takes these (except possibly for Heir, but even then). Suggestion: Remove all together. Combine with Miser and Treasure Hunter. Combine with Silver Tongue line (which I would also consider removing). None of these have long reaching affects, and I’ve never taken them except out of curiosity of how much gold I can possibly start with. Gold’s only use is getting Crowned and possibly Training with Garth. It is simply not worth it to take these as talents. If you had Wealthy/Miser -> Silver Tongue (decreased shop prices and increased sale prices) -> Heir and Treasure Hunter, then people might take it. Remove the rest of the line.

Pius line: Currently: useful in theory, but not worth wasting a talent on as Crowning is fairly easy. Suggestion: Have it give you enough piety to pray for a 3rd time at the beginning of the game. Have it passively generate piety enough for 1 prayer (currently, it is my understanding that piety slowly dwindles to 0. If it takes 100 piety (example) to pray, then have “Pius” regen piety for you once you’ve dropped below 100). Remove. Decrease the rate of piety decay. I would like to see this increase the ability of Priests, Paladins and Druids, either in magic, or weapon damage. Maybe Pius, Very Pius and Saint, give the divine classes (+1,+1) each, +1 magic damage, +1DV, +1PP and +1 hp. They do draw their power from their God. This would be really fun I think, and add a lot of flavor. For 3 talents, you get (+3,+3) (mostly useful for Paladins), +3hp, +3 DV (Useful for all. Your god protecting you), +3 PP, +3 magic damage (for druids and priests), and 15% reduced cost to pray. I always wanted more interaction from deities in Adom. They are an untapped resource.

Sixth Sense: Currently: Nominally useful. Suggestion: Increase dodge against spells, similar to Alertness, in addition to traps.

Mechanically Inclined: Currently: Barely useful, borderline useless. Suggestion: Remove, combine with Sixth Sense.

Looking for feedback, points of agreement/disagreement, and new suggestions.

Issue Details

Issue Number 3036

Issue Type Feature

Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)

Category All

Status Suggested

Priority 8

Suggested Version ADOM r48

Implemented Version (none)

Milestone (none)

Votes for this feature 0

Votes against this feature 0

Attachments 0

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06-03-2014 03:57 PM

SirTheta

Ancient Member

I have a few comments:

The Attribute Talents: Currently: taken only as prereqs. I like this, but it is very limited in value, and costs an entire talent at the start of the game. Suggestion. Have them increase your potential by 2, and passively train your stat (similar to how Athletics trains).

I agree (excepting the passively train your stat). http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1474

Hardy line: Currently: only the first is taken b/c of prereq to tough skin. Suggestion: Make Hardy give +4 hp, then the “Very and Extremely Hardy” increase hp by 5% and 6% (for a total of 11%). This makes them much more appealing to warrior classes instead of just taking the first, and then the PV line.

I take all of these on mist elves (even before they were fixed, now definitely) and some other low HP races. I could see the argument for a boost to them, but 11% is kind of big - that could potentially be upwards of 100 HP. I'd rather see Very Hardy still give +6 and Extremely Hardy give +5% HP or something.

Skilled line: Currently: avoided. Minimal effect, no prereq, and wastes a talent. Suggestion: “Skilled” increases skill increase die by 1 level (2d3 becomes 2d4), and increases the chances of theoretical increases through the game. “Very Skilled” increases base skills rank by 4, and increases skill increase die by 1 level, as well as theoretical training. “Extremely Skilled” increases max skill level by 25% (100 cap obviously), and increases skill increase dice by 1 level.

Increasing die through and through (by 1,2,3 levels) would probably make these talents worth it for classes with very bad die rolls (Necros), which would fix things. Very/Extremely skilled would have to have the Level 1 prereq removed though.

Book Casting line: Book casting needs to be changed in general. I like the concept and imagery, but it doesn’t work in practice. 1: Books are too heavy (especially for frail wizards), 2: you need spell xp, 3: it costs more, and 4: you generally have enough castings, so there simply is no need to cast from books. If you made book casting do more damage and still give xp, then we would be in business.

Book Casting is great when trying to conserve castings (you generally don't have enough castings in the early game) or if you wish to train mana. These talents are also taken for anyone trying to make an archmage. I think they're useful as-is.

Wealthy line: Currently: Nobody takes these (except possibly for Heir, but even then). Suggestion: Remove all together. Combine with Miser and Treasure Hunter. Combine with Silver Tongue line (which I would also consider removing). None of these have long reaching affects, and I’ve never taken them except out of curiosity of how much gold I can possibly start with. Gold’s only use is getting Crowned and possibly Training with Garth. It is simply not worth it to take these as talents. If you had Wealthy/Miser -> Silver Tongue (decreased shop prices and increased sale prices) -> Heir and Treasure Hunter, then people might take it. Remove the rest of the line.

This is sometimes used by Merchants, hoping for a good black market score, but it's pretty bad - I think getting rid of everything beyond Wealthy is fine and combining Wealthy & Miser is also fine. Prereq for TH should still be Alert, though.

Porter line: Currently, occasionally tempting for Weaponsmiths, though I’ve still never taken it. Suggestion: Remove. Have “Porter” give +1 Strength as well as 10% increased carrying capacity. Have it greatly reduce the penalties to moving while Burdened and Strained. Combine with “Natural Trader” or “Treasure Hunter”.

I think this line is fine as-is. It's common to take it on Monks & Duelists to access their class powers (at least, I take it). I'd hate to see it disappear.

06-03-2014 04:30 PM

Krough Firender Krough Firender is offline

Junior Member

Thank you for pointing out the attribute talent discussion. I would agree in that line that a larger numerical value would help solve the problem.
Upon more consideration, you are right that 11% from the Hardy line would be excessive. Do we know how much HP you get from a single To point? I still think that the raw value should increase, maybe +4, +8, 6%? Otherwise, just get Tough.
Thank you also for pointing out the Monk/Duelist use of Porter. I think that despite this, the overall usefulness is still very low. If it could be combined in some way with a prereq for TH, grant another bonus, or just have a larger value (15 or 20%) it would see more use.
While book casting is useful early game, it is not worth it to take the talents. I supposed I didn't give b-casting it's due in my origional comment, but I still feel that the talents are never taken because you stop casting from books (the vast majority of the time) by level 14-15. I might be ending early, but I rarely have problems with getting enough casting points after that. If the talent was modified to still be useful after the preliminary levels, like being combined with the "good book learner" talent, then I could see a use for them.

06-03-2014 04:54 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

"Dirty Fighter". +1 to-hit, +1 dmg, resistant to disarming attacks, small chance of confusing target. Prereq. "Aggressive", Dex 18+, Str 15+
“Perceptive Fighter”. +1 to-hit, and 30% increased effect from Find Weakness. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Find Weakness 65+, and Pe:15+
“Weapon Finesse” (Stolen from D&D). Dexterity now gives a damage bonus. This would be a nice option for Elvish Fighters. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Dex. 18+
“Heavy Hitter”. +2 Melee Damage, increased chance to stun. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Str: 20+

These all seem very strong for their prerequisites. They are better than many high level class powers.

“Cleave”. Grants ability (ctr-x) to Cleave, hitting up to three adjacent targets. -3 to-hit and costs 1800 EP. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Str. 18+ (Maybe Courage 50+?)

Again, there are comparable class powers to this (though these are actually fairly weak for class powers, IMHO).

11% is a pretty large bonus for some level 1 talents.

I like increasing the die by one for each rank. Nothing else is need here, IMHO.

Magic Talents: Currently: Charged, Extended Magic, and Strong Magic are the only useful talents in this line. Suggestion: Have “Strong” and “Mighty Aura” increase PP and PP regen by 5% and 8% (total of 13%). Have “Strong Magic” increase hp from healing as well, removing “Strong Healer”.

Actually, I would say that charged, extend magic and strong magic are all completely worthless and need a buff more than the aura talents (which are handy for a low PP mindcrafter or elementalist).

“Potent Magic”. +2 dmg with spells, and 20% increases chance to not be “shrugged off” by resistant creatures”. Prereq. “Strong Magic”, Wi 18+

Throw on a level 25+ restriction to balance it out maybe.

“Quick Caster”, -15% energy points for casting spells. Prereq. “Potent Aura”

See above. Spells are already too good.

"Dual-Casting", ctr-x to cast two spells simultaneously, for 1.8x PP. If they are the same type of spell (bolt or ball) they should extend the range/aoe. Prereq. "Potent Aura", "Quick Caster"

See above. Maybe as a level 40+ class power it might be appropriate.

“Blood Caster” (wishful thinking) Removing penalties for using life force as PP. -> “Blood Magic” increasing dmg when you use HP by 50% -> “Blood Mage” Set PP to 0, half the cost of blood casting, and Concentration and "Charged" increases HP regen.

Maybe for level 40 necro class power.

This line isn't meant for wizards. It's meant for marginal casters like orc paladins or elfish thieves, and is quite useful for them. [edit]Or, for that matter, a mindcrafter with a well-boozed wand of wonder and a couple of spellbooks can make excellent use of book casting.

This is one of the best talent lines already.

Sixth Sense: Currently: Nominally useful. Suggestion: Increase dodge against spells, similar to Alertness, in addition to traps.

This is already a pretty good stand-alone talent.

Mechanically Inclined: Currently: Barely useful, borderline useless. Suggestion: Remove, combine with Sixth Sense.

This should just be removed entirely.

See also 1222 for more talent discussions.

06-03-2014 06:12 PM

Al-Khwarizmi Al-Khwarizmi is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

What? I take Porter in every game. It's really really useful for us packrats.

By the way, the thread http://www.adom.de/forums/project.ph...id=1222&page=2 has detailed statistics on how much each talent is taken.

Porter is 13th out of 100 talents.

06-03-2014 06:50 PM

Krough Firender Krough Firender is offline

Junior Member

I think the general idea was the the current design of talents has very little impact on the game, with some being disproportionately usefull/useless. I like the discussion you linked of elite talents, which is sort of what I was attempting to do. I grant that more prereq's are necessary for many of them, but the overall feel is that talents should have a greater impact on the game.

"These all seem very strong for their prerequisites. They are better than many high level class powers."

I disagree. +1,+1 with a1 talent prereq is pretty standard, and the resistence to disarm might small (like an artificial +1 or +2 weapon level), and the chance to confuse would likewise be tiny, and only useful if it triggered against powerful opponents.
Fighters get 50% more out of dodge at lv 12 (if I'm remembering correctly). What is +1,+0 and 30% FW?
Weapon Finesse would need to be balanced. Not sure exactly how the numbers would work, but it gives a resonable option for elves and off-race fighters.
+2 Damage is likewise not terribly strong. It does need some more prereq, but in general, if these were class powers, I would wholly be disappointed in them.

"Again, there are comparable class powers to this (though these are actually fairly weak for class powers, IMHO)."

Why can't some advanced talents be on par with class powers? They are not super strong, they just add versatility and variety of options. More prereq's are fair though.

"11% is a pretty large bonus for some level 1 talents."

Agreed. I would revise it to +4, +8, +5%

"I like increasing the die by one for each rank. Nothing else is need here, IMHO."

I considered this, but the dice reduce over time, which would result in roughly the same increase it already is, which is nominal. If there was a way to have it so that skills die could never drop below a certain level (1d5 for skilled, 2d4 (or is it 3?) for very skilled, 2d5 extremely skilled) that would make these worth taking.

"Actually, I would say that charged, extend magic and strong magic are all completely worthless and need a buff more than the aura talents (which are handy for a low PP mindcrafter or elementalist)."

While the PP can be nice for non-magical race mc or ele, I don't think the primary casting line should only serve mediocre casters. And even the current benefits of the line grant 18PP for 3 talents, something which is almost worthless when you have 90-100 Concentration after half an hour of play. I confess I do not know the exact numerical influence of "charged", but I regularly take it; perhaps it does diserve a buff as well. I would agree that "strong magic" needs a buff, which is why I built it into a line for "potent magic". I think having more direct options for future talents is almost a buff in itself, especially when you are above level 18 when talents feel like they don't even matter.

"Throw on a level 25+ restriction to balance it out maybe."

I would agree. I didn't give due throught to include all the prereqs. I was more concerened with creating talents that felt useful in times other than the first 12 levels.

"See above. Spells are already too good."

I agree and disagree. With the number of creatures practically immune to spells, or ones which easily surround or attack the caster, my wizards tend to die a little easier. Thats not saying that magix isn't very powerful. I wouldn't be opposed to the damage on all spells being nerfed, if it meant that creatures also had a little less resistence to them. I think there should be more options for casters who really want to go glass magic cannon in the talent tree.

"See above. Maybe as a level 40+ class power it might be appropriate."

Again, possibly, but I would put it a touch lower. It would still cost a tremendous amount of PP (2 spells, x 1.8 PP), which would make it less viable early and mid game, but on the whole, I could see it being used occassionally and without being OP at mid levels.

"Maybe for level 40 necro class power."

Perhaps :) again, it was just wishful thinking, and I know it would need some heavy prereq's. This one I was throwing out for flavor.

"This line isn't meant for wizards. It's meant for marginal casters like orc paladins or elfish thieves, and is quite useful for them. [edit]Or, for that matter, a mindcrafter with a well-boozed wand of wonder and a couple of spellbooks can make excellent use of book casting."

I confess I've never played that type of mindcrafter :) I think that book casting could still use a buff, but I have apparently neglected many facets of race/class/magic combinations :)

"This is one of the best talent lines already."

I concede I may have been wrong about this talent, especially in light of TDau's *very* helpful stats. I have just gotten used to ditching all the equip I do not need to stay light on my feet.

"This is already a pretty good stand-alone talent."

Is it? I've experimented by taking it a few times, and I've not noticed its effects greatly. Again, I could be wrong. I'm not sure the exact %dodge chance it gives you.

"This should just be removed entirely."

Agreed.

06-03-2014 06:57 PM

Krough Firender Krough Firender is offline

Junior Member

Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi

I was mistaken on this talent overall.

Using the data however, it does place an emphasis on the fact that people tend to only grab defensive talents (Quick, Careful, Tough Skin, even Porter because of the defensive penalties). A large thing I was attempting to address was the lack of reasonable aggressive options for melee.

06-03-2014 07:17 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

Why can't some advanced talents be on par with class powers? They are not super strong, they just add versatility and variety of options. More prereq's are fair though.

I wouldn't call any of these "advanced talents". Most of them you can get at level 1--you just need to take aggressive, and then with the right stats, you can take any of these. There is a long discussion about the possibility of "elite talents" in the other thread that some of these might be appropriate for.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

I considered this, but the dice reduce over time, which would result in roughly the same increase it already is, which is nominal. If there was a way to have it so that skills die could never drop below a certain level (1d5 for skilled, 2d4 (or is it 3?) for very skilled, 2d5 extremely skilled, that would make these worth taking.

I don't think the dice decrease over time. They decrease as your skills go up.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

Actually, I would say that charged, extend magic and strong magic are all completely worthless and need a buff more than the aura talents (which are handy for a low PP mindcrafter or elementalist).

While the PP can be nice for non-magical race mc or ele, I don't think the primary casting line should only serve mediocre casters. And even the current benefits of the line grant 18PP for 3 talents, something which is almost worthless when you have 90-100 Concentration after half an hour of play. I confess I do not know the exact numerical influence of "charged", but I regularly take it; perhaps it does diserve a buff as well. I would agree that "strong magic" needs a buff, which is why I built it into a line for "potent magic". I think having more direct options for future talents is almost a buff in itself, especially when you are above level 18 when talents feel like they don't even matter.

The effect of charged is 2 pp per 100 turns if you have concentration, and slightly more if you don't, if memory serves. 100 Concentration gives about 65 PP per 100 turns, just for comparison. Note that (unlike HP) you can never gain more than 1 pp per turn in ADOM, which is why pretty much any PP regeneration item, talent, etc. is dwarfed by the effects of concentration. Maybe giving mighty aura +5% PP like you're suggesting Extremely Hardy does would make these more attractive for pure casters. The Healthy talent, despite its popularity, is similarly weak in terms of its actual benefit.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

I agree and disagree. With the number of creatures practically immune to spells, or ones which easily surround or attack the caster, my wizards tend to die a little easier. Thats not saying that magix isn't very powerful. I wouldn't be opposed to the damage on all spells being nerfed, if it meant that creatures also had a little less resistence to them. I think there should be more options for casters who really want to go glass magic cannon in the talent tree.

No monster is immune to spells. Not even close. That's one reason why magic is so powerful. You can beat the game using nothing but magic missile, if you have enough castings. You can beat the game using nothing but acid ball as well, as long as you avoid the 3-4 monsters with acid resistance--though this is probably not true in practice because it's a hard spell to learn at level 1 and the books are too rare to generate enough castings for it.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

I concede I may have been wrong about this talent, especially in light of TDau's *very* helpful stats. I have just gotten used to ditching all the equip I do not need to stay light on my feet.

For low St characters, this can be a real blessing. Most characters cap out at 16 or 18 St in the midgame, which gives a pretty pitiful 1400-1500s carrying capacity before hitting burdened. I'm not a packrat myself, but not getting burdened with this little inventory space is pretty challenging. The Porter line adds an extra 1000 stones of capacity, effectively increasing your St to 24-25, and gives you a lot of extra breathing room.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

Is it? I've experimented by taking it a few times, and I've not noticed its effects greatly. Again, I could be wrong. I'm not sure the exact %dodge chance it gives you.

Supposedly, it gives a free 1-in-6 chance to avoid a trap. Not a huge effect, but over the course of a game, it adds up. Especially if you don't have Alertness or Detect Traps.

06-03-2014 07:51 PM

Krough Firender Krough Firender is offline

Junior Member

Originally Posted by JellySlayer

I agree with you completely on this. Again, I hadn't really thought through a lot of the prereqs, but I would for sure put a lvl 12 requirement on many of the melee talents. For me, and according to the data, defensive talents are almost always taken over aggressive ones. I was proposing talents which could be achieved at a relatively low level which would offer another option.

Originally Posted by JellySlayer

I don't think the dice decrease over time. They decrease as your skills go up.

Yes. But if they decrease quickly, (like for necro), then you are still only getting a slight benefit from the skill (maybe 4-6 ranks?), and I just don't think that many people would take it if this was the only benefit. Not to mention that many skilled are not leveled actively, reducing the effect of the talent even further (haggling, listening, pickpocket, etc.) If this talent is to offer an advantage on par with others, it need to have a greater effect.

Originally Posted by JellySlayer

Thanks for the info. I am in favor of more % increases as was mentioned in this and the other thread, and would like to see Charged and Healthy buffed, and even Concentration nerfed slightly.

Originally Posted by JellySlayer

True, but again, only in theory. This is assuming that you can cast the spell many times against the creature before it kills you. The Steel mobs in Dark Forge come to mind. "Theoretically" you can kill them with spells, but they will most likely kill a caster class well before that happens. This is, of course, excluding kiting and being careful, but the same methods apply to any class. Overall, I was simply looking for more options for a character who wanted to play pure caster (which is me whenever I decide to play a wizard or elementalist. Taking the 4-ish magic talents that aren't very useful anyways are currently your only options.

Originally Posted by JellySlayer

Supposedly, it gives a free 1-in-6 chance to avoid a trap. Not a huge effect, but over the course of a game, it adds up. Especially if you don't have Alertness or Detect Traps.

I imagine it could add up, but how often is a person worried about traps, even in mid game? By then you have your blankets and rings of ice, and presumably enough HP (and almost certainly enough res) to withstand trap effects. I'm not saying it isn't partially useful; I'm suggesting adding to it, either by having it apply some effect to spells (like a talent form of alertness), or some other benefit.

Again, I was mainly focused on making some talents useful enough that people might actually get them. This means that aggressive talents be good enough to take over their defensive counterparts (on occassion), and many others being buffed to have a real effect on the game, because as it stands, only the 13-ish or so ones in the top of the percentage list seem to actually help you. I really like many of the suggestions in the other thread as well; Perhaps all the suggestions and agreements should be moved to a single post (I was unaware of the last one), and hashed out and edited until it seems to appease most people? I will go back and check more talent related posts.

06-03-2014 08:02 PM

Krough Firender Krough Firender is offline

Junior Member

I revised the prereqs. Do these seem more fitting?

"Dirty Fighter". +1 to-hit, +1 dmg, resistant to disarming attacks, small chance of confusing target. Prereq. "Aggressive", Quick, Dex 18+, Str 15+
“Perceptive Fighter”. +1 to-hit, and 30% increased effect from Find Weakness. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Find Weakness 65+, and Pe:15+
“Weapon Finesse” (Stolen from D&D). Dexterity now gives a damage bonus. This would be a nice option for Elvish Fighters. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Careful, Dex. 18+, Elf
“Heavy Hitter”. +2 Melee Damage, increased chance to stun. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Lv. 12 Warrior Class (barbarian, fighter, paladin, etc) Str: 20+
“Cleave”. Grants ability (ctr-x) to Cleave, hitting up to three adjacent targets. -3 to-hit and costs 1800 EP. Prereq. “Aggressive”, Str. 18+ (Maybe Courage 50+?), lv. 12
“Potent Magic”. +2 dmg with spells, and 20% increases chance to not be “shrugged off” by resistant creatures”. Prereq. “Strong Magic”, Wi 24+
“Quick Caster”, -15% energy points for casting spells. Prereq. “Strong Aura”
"Dual-Casting", ctr-x to cast two spells simultaneously, for 1.8x PP. If they are the same type of spell (bolt or ball) they should extend the range/aoe. Prereq. "Mighty Aura", "Quick Caster", Mana 24+, Dex 16+
“Blood Caster” (wishful thinking) Removing penalties for using life force as PP. -> “Blood Magic” increasing dmg when you use HP by 50% -> “Blood Mage” Set PP to 0, half the cost of blood casting, and Concentration and "Charged" increases HP regen. Prereq for "Blood Caster", Concentration 100, Necromancer or Wizard lv 12

Also, do you have thoughts about Affinities or the Pius line?

06-03-2014 08:57 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

I understand what you're trying to do, I'm just comparing the effects you're talking about to the current talents as a baseline, and to current class powers. Being able to stun a monster with a melee attack is a class power afforded to level 25 thieves and level 40 beastfighters only at this point (or characters lucky enough to find a weapon of thunder), and it is powerful. Get this within the first couple of levels, stack it with the other power that gives confusion on melee hits, and your character is going to be a monster.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

I think the dice go down every 10 points of skill, except that you can have multiple 4d5s stacked on each other. I think you're overestimating the effects of some of the other talents. Skilled, in this case, effectively makes it considerably easier to raise all skills by 10 points. Is that really so much worse than, say, +2 speed? Or +1 DV? +3 HP? And those are considered good talents.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

Melee attacks have the same problems, only much worse. Spells you can attack from a distance, which puts you already at an advantage over the vast majority of monsters who don't have ranged attacks (or their ranged attacks are somewhat pitiful compared to their melee). You can also attack multiple monsters at once. Yes, you might get a couple of them shrugging now and then, but it's not like melee/missile attacks always hit either. You can also cast spells without penalty in Coward tactics while wielding two shields, which will mean that you can take probably 3x as many hits as a comparable melee character before you have to be seriously concerned about dying. And of course, that's ignoring the ball spells, which cannot be shrugged at all. I find it kind of funny that nobody ever complains about their melee character getting 30 misses in a row against a displacer beat, but a grue shrugs a spell twice and people say monster shrugging is unfair and needs a massive nerf.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

This is, of course, excluding kiting and being careful, but the same methods apply to any class.

Except melee characters, who can't kite particularly effectively unless they're considerably faster than the monster they're fighting.

Originally Posted by Krough Firender

There's some pretty trap-heavy areas in the midgame--the Maze and Mana Temple come to mind, where traps are still, if not dangerous, at least a nuisance. A ceiling trap (the kind that replaces teleport traps) can damage lots and lots of items. Pit traps can take off a pretty large chunk of your HP even at high levels (I think it's based on a proportion of your health). I've lost RoDS and 7lbs to acid traps before, which you can't protect against. I don't know if Sixth Sense affects door traps (I assume it does), but explosive rune traps can be bad for your gear even fairly late into the game.

As far as Pius line is concerned, I'd probably suggest just ramping up the bonuses. Maybe 10%/20%/35% cheaper prayers (not additive) or something. The effect is just currently not strong enough to be noticeable at this point, but with a bit of fiddling I think this could be a decent enough talent line.

For affinities, I like the suggestion from the other thread that the bonuses could scale with weapon skill, so that a grandmaster might end up with a +4 or +5 by the end or something. Or just make the bonuses bigger to tempt people into committing to a single weapon type. Realistically, if the bonus was decent (say, +2/+2 or +4/0 or something), people would probably be happy enough to take affinities later in the game once your weapon choices are more or less set.

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