Improve question-based character generation and make it transparent
It's just not worthy to use. Effect is nearly unnoticeable for unspoiled players. And it's mostly negated even for spoiled players. It doesn't affect "personality" - it affect attributes only.
1. Show the effect of each answer to the player. Example:
At one point you fall deeply into love. Your beloved refuses your advances and does not seem to be interested. Will you...
...continue your advances because perseverance can overcome a lack of love? [Le -1, Wi +2, Ch -1]
...stop your advances because there are so many other wonderful people out there? [Wi -1, Ch -1, Ma +1, Pe +1]
...admit defeat and never again show your feelings to another person because they will hurt you again? [Wi -1, Dx +1, Ch -1, Ma +1]
...discuss your feelings with that person to get a clear picture of the situation? [Le +1, Ma -1]
2. Display attributes during question-based character generation. 3. Implement #2386. A couple ideas how it could work (just examples):
Alignment:
You are carrying your liege's gold to his castle. You stumble upon a poor beggar. Do you...
...give him some of your liege's money? [no change]
...give him some of your own money? [moves PC to lawful]
...take what little money the beggar has in his dish? [moves PC to chaotic]
...ignore the beggar? [moves PC to neutral]
Items:
You are in a nobleman's house as a dinner guest. While waiting in the library for your host, you notice a small, old book beautifully covered with gold lacing and ivory carvings. The temptation is strong. Do you...
...pocket the book in hopes of selling it? [+one more random book or +some gold]
Skills (improve if skill exists):
Your father wants you to help him building a new house for your family. This work will be very long and very hard and your father is a harsh task master. At the same time your uncle, a merchant, wants you to accompany him on a trip to a distant and exotic city. Will you...
...help your father with all your skill in order to further the welfare of your family, despite missing the opportunity to see new marvels and wonders? [+1d5 Climbing, +1d5 Metallurgy, +1d5+5 Woodcraft]
Piety:
You attempt to make an arrow and you do not succeed. Do you...
...pray to the Gods for guidance on making better arrows in the future? [+100 starting piety]
Companions:
One night you wake up of a strange dog whining on your yard. You see the dog is bleeding and critically hurt. Will you...
...try to medicate the dog? / ...wake your father and mother up? [Druids, Bards and Farmers might get +1 Large Dog pet depending on luck and First Aid skill]
All above are just examples which might be very unbalanced but I'd rather see anything similar implemented.
Why?
As far as I can see question-based character generation was meant to work the following way: you answer questions selecting prefered behavior for your PC and you're getting something without knowing exactly what the actual effect of your answers was. Well, probably it was meant that players should try to experiment, solve the puzzle and guess how it works but I doubt.
This was never working due to the following difficulties:
- Before I became spoiled I didn't thought generation effects only attributes. Mostly I was chosing answers in terms of alignment. Aka my troll barbarians were picking bad answers and dwarven paladins good answers only.
- Effect is negated by other random factors which affect attributes as well.
- If you don't know exactly what each answer of 10 questions do would you waste your time just to generate another character which isn't very different from completely random-generated? I wouldn't anymore.
- If you don't know what your current attributes are how would you build the character you want to get? E.g. if you want toughness and learning but due to random factors your character sometimes gets only insufficient learning, sometimes insufficient toughness.
- You can open wiki or guidebook and decrypt each answer. It's very inconvenient way. But question system isn't a puzzle anymore in any case.
It leaves vague impression. It looks cool and awesome from scratch but once you try it a couple of times and didn't notice any effect you'll definitely be disappointed and generate your characters randomly.
My vote: Remove questions entirely. Especially with point-based character generation, this feature is totally superfluous. Even without point-based, it just makes character generation too long.
I kinda like the question-based character creation. It's a creative way to let the player have an influence on the character -- much better than boiling it down to naked points distribution. (It also reminds me of the beginning of the Ultima games, which is always a good thing.) :)
That said, I'd rather the influence of the questions remain unspecified, not spelled-out as points. Though, if this was added, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
My vote: Remove questions entirely. Especially with point-based character generation, this feature is totally superfluous. Even without point-based, it just makes character generation too long.
As far as I know there are 51 question total. There are 4 answers for each question. That's quite a lot of text. There is an effect related to each question. I believe TB spent a lot of time adding this question-based character generation into the game. And yes, this is more creative than point-based character generation.
If I were TB I wouldn't just throw this away. Well, it's probably ok to get rid of some old code but do you think one could remove his own texts especially in such volume?
Another question - why remove? You're not forced to go through it, it's totally optional. And there are players who like it. If you're not using it that doesn't mean no one uses or at least no one wants to use.
Finally point-based character generation isn't there and I might not be implemented at all.
My vote: Remove questions entirely. Especially with point-based character generation, this feature is totally superfluous. Even without point-based, it just makes character generation too long.
Nooo! The question system may be worthless for the players who are only interested in winning and competition, but it's great for those of us who like to roleplay. I have always considered it a great distinctive feature of the game, and I have friends who have gotten a really good first impression of the game due to this.
It's optional, no one is forced to answer any questions, and precisely with the incoming point-based system, people who aren't interested in the question system will be able to get the same numeric effect without questions. So please don't remove this option.
I also concur with tkoyah - I'd rather the outcome of the questions be kept hidden as it is now (min-maxers will use the points system anyway), although I wouldn't be outraged if it weren't.
The question system is fun if you like roleplaying, so please keep it for that reason.
I´m against transparancy, because that would distract you from roleplaying. (Because it encourages you to base your decision on stat rewards, instead of thinking about what your character would do.)
I like the RFE. I think it should be optional whether you can see the effects, and perhaps have the effects on stats be non-guaranteed.
Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
Nooo! The question system may be worthless for the players who are only interested in winning and competition, but it's great for those of us who like to roleplay.
I didn't realise this mini-game was that fun. If you like that segment of the game so much, why not play through the question part, then quit the character and make a new one and do it again? Personally I think it allows you to roleplay, but that doesn't mean it's a particularly fun way of doing it.
I like role-playing to an extent, but I also like to get on with the game, and I like to know if things are having an effect. The trouble is the effects of the answers you choose are often not what you'd think they would be, often cancel each other out, and due to inherent randomness of the final score they have little effect overall--it is ONLY when you know the exact numbers via spoiling yourself that you can harness them to your advantage.
So yes, this is JUST for people who like roleplaying--if I were being facetious I'd say that I agree with half of Jellyslayer's idea of removal--just remove the stat effects, and have it just a roleplaying Q&A to make you feel more immersed and invested in a character that might die 1000 turns from now.
I'd rather the outcome of the questions be kept hidden as it is now
Originally Posted by tkoyah
I'd rather the influence of the questions remain unspecified, not spelled-out as points.
This gives me an idea: have question-answering select your class. Anyway it seems weird that people are suddenly allergic to numbers because 'mah roleplaying' when the rest of the game is so blatantly number orientated, to the point that I won't visit certain locations with a certain pv or dv, etc.
Anyway it seems weird that people are suddenly allergic to numbers because 'mah role-playing' when the rest of the game is so blatantly number orientated, to the point that I won't visit certain locations with a certain pv or dv, etc.
For anyone who went through other question-based creation RPG's, such as the Ultima series, nostalgia may be a good part of it. But, that said, the early Ultima's were simple point distribution, and the latter ones were question-based, and I have to say I much preferred the later method.
A very important aspect of the question method is that you may be surprised from time to time on the exact make-up of the character you end up with. Half of the fun of the early game with ADOM is getting from the mixed-bag of character-stats and inventory items you've been lumped with, to your strong, experienced hero with shiny armour and weapons. You get to worry about those numbers *more* in the early game than if you'd had a known, precise influence on them.
So it's not an allergy of numbers. I don't worry about the numbers in character generation, so I can fuss over the numbers *more* in the game proper.
Personally I'd like to see the stat changes displayed, currently I look them up on the wiki which is a pain in the ass. Does it diminish the roleplay value to see the stats? Personally I think it's ok.
The questions definitely shouldn't be scrapped, many people clearly enjoy them.
I'm not voting yet because this isn't an essential change for me, with a points-based system coming soon I won't have much cause to use the question system in the future.
I can take or leave the stats being displayed. ..perhaps, if people feel strongly about the stats being displayed, there could be an entry in the config file that toggles them? Like the Show_Experience one.
From the point of view of an unspoiled player, the question system appears as mystic as it should, contributing greatly to immersion. I know this from my earlier self who used to love it, but also from friends I managed to avoid spoiling. They still use it and believe that is has many subtle effects that it doesn't really have.
It should be fixed not by making it more gamey (showing stats) thus breaking all immersion, but rather by adding those subtle effects! Let the questions have
- a significant effect on your alignment
- a minor effect on your initial piety
- maybe some question/answer combinations could give a chance for initial lucky/cursed status.
- a chance for an extra starting gear (I remember a question about reading or burning books when being out in the cold...)
- a usually not available starting talent (due to stat restriction) could be made available ..
- etc. etc.
And this should definitely not be transparent and quite subtle, so that random remains on average a similarly well choice.
By the way, some of this subtle side effects could also go with the talents....
From the point of view of an unspoiled player, the question system appears as mystic as it should, contributing greatly to immersion. I know this from my earlier self who used to love it, but also from friends I managed to avoid spoiling. They still use it and believe that is has many subtle effects that it doesn't really have.
It should be fixed not by making it more gamey (showing stats) thus breaking all immersion, but rather by adding those subtle effects! Let the questions have
- a significant effect on your alignment
- a minor effect on your initial piety
- maybe some question/answer combinations could give a chance for initial lucky/cursed status.
- a chance for an extra starting gear (I remember a question about reading or burning books when being out in the cold...)
- a usually not available starting talent (due to stat restriction) could be made available ..
- etc. etc.
And this should definitely not be transparent and quite subtle, so that random remains on average a similarly well choice.
By the way, some of this subtle side effects could also go with the talents....
Seems to me like the placebo effect can save Thomas some programming work.
Showing extra meta-information based on player preference is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.
A rather recent major RPG release (Pillars of Eternity) did exactly that and placed it under difficulty settings (which you choose at the start of the game).
Catering to a larger player base can only be done this way IMHO.
From the point of view of an unspoiled player, the question system appears as mystic as it should, contributing greatly to immersion. I know this from my earlier self who used to love it, but also from friends I managed to avoid spoiling. They still use it and believe that is has many subtle effects that it doesn't really have.
It should be fixed not by making it more gamey (showing stats) thus breaking all immersion, but rather by adding those subtle effects! Let the questions have
- a significant effect on your alignment
- a minor effect on your initial piety
- maybe some question/answer combinations could give a chance for initial lucky/cursed status.
- a chance for an extra starting gear (I remember a question about reading or burning books when being out in the cold...)
- a usually not available starting talent (due to stat restriction) could be made available ..
- etc. etc.
And this should definitely not be transparent and quite subtle, so that random remains on average a similarly well choice.
By the way, some of this subtle side effects could also go with the talents....
I also like this way more but I'm not sure if it will be implemented ever. If system stays the same I'm for showing stats. Completely agree on config entry.
I'm 100% against removing the questions or displaying the stat changes done by each answer. I absolutely fell in love with the question system when I first played this game, it was one of those things that made ADOM stand out for me. And it seems many others feel that way too.
The other idea (point no. 3 of the first post) is interesting, but something springs to mind - what do you do with players that roll attributes randomly? Act as if they'd picked random answers, therefore giving rewards they didn't "earn", or nothing at all (which would give the question system an edge)?
The other idea (point no. 3 of the first post) is interesting, but something springs to mind - what do you do with players that roll attributes randomly? Act as if they'd picked random answers, therefore giving rewards they didn't "earn", or nothing at all (which would give the question system an edge)?
I'd think it should act like random answers were picked up. This way those who likes complete random won't be disadvantage.