NotEye tiles do not always reflect biological sex
issueid=4203 12-28-2015 10:09 PM
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by todd: 4
NotEye tiles do not always reflect biological sex
Many creatures have biological sex, but their tiles are exclusively masculine

Since ADOM associates biological sex with an enormous variety of creatures, the tileset should reflect these associations. Some of the creatures like outlaws and bandits, I think? have beards in their tiles, even when the textual description indicates that the creature is female. I don't know whether female dwarves, gnomes, orcs, trolls, ratlings, etc. are normatively permitted facial hair, but humans and elves clearly are not.

I realize that updating the tileset to reflect biological sex correctly is rather a lot of work, but since the tileset exists to support and enrich the game, the fact that tiles depicting human women often display beards has to be considered a bug. It would seem rather a shame to remove biological sex from the text, since that would amount to removing verisimilitude from the world, so fixing the tileset is definitely the way to go.
Issue Details
Issue Number 4203
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All with NotEye
Status Fixed
Priority 4
Affected Version ADOM r64 (v2.0.3)
Fixed Version ADOM r65 (v2.1.0)
Milestone (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 6
Users unable to reproduce bug 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




01-03-2016 07:25 AM
Senior Member
I'd love to see an expanded tileset permitting ADOM to render certain female humanoids (goblins, orcs and monsters in the giant family are the most obvious candidates; kobolds, lizardfolk, and gnolls, on the other hand, don't really need it.)

01-03-2016 07:45 AM
Ancient Member
Can I get assigned to this please?
I'd also appreciate a full list of monsters that require both "female" and "male" sprites. (Maybe add this info as an icon in the monster.html doc?).

01-03-2016 08:43 PM
Senior Member
I love bearded female monsters. But yeah seriously, it's weird to encounter enemies with beard that are female.

01-03-2016 09:07 PM
Senior Member
I think the most noticeable for me are the female giants in all the places with guaranteed giants. They all have beards.

01-05-2016 08:45 PM
Xin Xin is offline
Junior Member
female beggar, cutpurse, all giants, all spellcasters (necromancer, black wizard, etc) have beard...

01-06-2016 07:36 AM
Senior Member
I just remembered a while ago the creator mentioned in a blog post or something that he didn't think of the extra female versions of monsters and so he only paid the guy to do enough tiles for everything as it is now(?) So this might be fixed in the near future if resources can be spent towards getting more tiles. Although i'm not entirely sure if i'm correct in saying this.

01-06-2016 04:00 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by pjsb1
I just remembered a while ago the creator mentioned in a blog post or something that he didn't think of the extra female versions of monsters and so he only paid the guy to do enough tiles for everything as it is now(?) So this might be fixed in the near future if resources can be spent towards getting more tiles. Although i'm not entirely sure if i'm correct in saying this.
I'm not quite sure but @Ravenmore who has already commented on this issue seem to be that guy? :)

01-06-2016 07:58 PM
Senior Member
As a low hanging fruit, I'd look into whether or not this bug affects the sprites of female berserkers - visual changes are worth implementing if they affect gameplay.

Otherwise they should be fixed only at a minimal priority.

01-06-2016 08:31 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by SinsI
As a low hanging fruit, I'd look into whether or not this bug affects the sprites of female berserkers - visual changes are worth implementing if they affect gameplay.

Otherwise they should be fixed only at a minimal priority.
Fortunately this whole issue feels like low hanging fruit, (unless I'm underestimating the programming workload on Zeno/JT's part...though it sounds pretty straightforward). The gain in game mechanic terms may be less significant, but Thomas did mention he wants do do away with all gender inequality leftovers in ADOM, and this is certainly a good first step.

I guess this touches a lot of monster types (50? 100? more?) but even then editing and tweaking sprites is much faster than inventing them from scratch. So yeah, once I'll get a list there's a good chance I can burn through it quickly.

01-07-2016 01:14 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Ravenmore
Can I get assigned to this please?
I'd also appreciate a full list of monsters that require both "female" and "male" sprites. (Maybe add this info as an icon in the monster.html doc?).
I attached monster.html doc with my vision of what needs to be done. I might miss some monsters or might mark something in a wrong way. Would be nice if someone from dev team sanity checks it to ensure all female monsters I marked are possible. I'm pretty sure I never saw female cyclops or female ettin but saw for example female fomorian giant. But I might be wrong...

Attaching list here for convenience:

Hope this helps.

01-07-2016 02:42 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Ravenmore
Fortunately this whole issue feels like low hanging fruit, (unless I'm underestimating the programming workload on Zeno/JT's part...though it sounds pretty straightforward). The gain in game mechanic terms may be less significant, but Thomas did mention he wants do do away with all gender inequality leftovers in ADOM, and this is certainly a good first step.

I guess this touches a lot of monster types (50? 100? more?) but even then editing and tweaking sprites is much faster than inventing them from scratch. So yeah, once I'll get a list there's a good chance I can burn through it quickly.
Awesome!

01-12-2016 08:14 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
berserker
What about berserker lords/princes/kings? Are those male only? There also needs to be a name change option for some monsters (e.g. berserker ladies/princesses/queens)

01-12-2016 11:17 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
I'd love to see lich empress as and ghost ladies too by the way :) Currently all lords, princes, kings and emperrors are male only and only sometimes princesses and queens appear.
But it seems out of scope of this ticket, I think if it doesn't fit into one of already opened tickets about male/female inequality problems there should be a new one with the list of concrete monsters needed.

01-12-2016 02:59 PM
Ancient Member
@ixi: Thank you! That saved me a ton of time :)

First 26 are submitted, updated the male versions by the way. See:
https://twitter.com/RavenmoreArt/sta...39144199737344

No more bearded female wizards ;) (I hope).

We'll see about the other 50, definitely some important candidates there.

01-12-2016 06:32 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Thank you Ravenmore for your awesome stuff!!!

01-12-2016 08:40 PM
Senior Member
Good work Ravenmore. Looks nice, can't wait to see them in game. Part of me is sad that no more bearded females, but I guess I can adapt with these changes.

01-12-2016 10:14 PM
Ancient Member
By the way, should not special names be used for PC classes (like "priestess" instead of "female priest")?

01-13-2016 04:05 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Zeno
By the way, should not special names be used for PC classes (like "priestess" instead of "female priest")?
Yep, I'd say it was reported by Keli: #4002.

01-22-2016 10:29 AM
Ancient Member
Okay, we now have a full female set in the Dev version. Hopefully this arrives with the next Beta patch for you guys to check out and report any shortcomings.

Some notes:
- As a general rule the differences between males and females are not very pronounced, especially for non-humanoids. That's to prevent a situation when you're wondering if this is a male/female variant or a different monster entirely. So it's stuff like "a bit more spikes" or "shorter teeth and snout". This also resulted in some rather masculine females (and some rather feminine males in some cases). I'll be happy to make some changes if someone feels offended :D
- If you find a female monster that's hard to tell from its male counterpart but has wildly different capabilities let me know and I'll push the differences further. (Fake example: a male barbarian is meh, but a female barbarian will tear you to pieces, so the sprites need to be easy to tell apart).

I updated dragons while I was doing this. If you find them in your game please take a look if they're not too big. I wanted them more imposing but maybe it went over the top? :P We'll wait and see.

01-23-2016 01:20 AM
Junior Member
Wow! That's fantastic, Ravenmore! I'm really looking forward to seeing your new work. :)

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