Improve the point-allocation attribute system
issueid=4259 02-02-2016 09:13 PM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by shockeroo: 47
Improve the point-allocation attribute system

Please consider this RFE as a request for improvement to the stat-allocation system based on or around the following, as opposed to one specific solution. It is clear that there is little consensus on exactly what to change, and the creator has some strong views on the subject.

Problems:
1) There is a significant difference between what many expected 'points-based allocation' to mean, and the current implementation which is designed heavily around ADOM's internal character generation process.
2) The range in which stats can be allocated is extremely narrow for the vast majority of races and classes, leading to a near-absence of meaningful choices and tradeoff decisions. (Many r/c cannot change several stats AT ALL, most others are limited to a range of 3 points).
3) Because background story is generated AFTER point allocation, the attribute scores seen in point allocation have little bearing on the actual attributes the character will have. This is counter-intuitive, and frustrating for some players.

Suggestions:
1) Consider a more mainstream type of point-allocation method (for example, this is how Pathfinder does it. ADOM could use a similar system to determine base stats, with the numbers modified by race, class and possibly background factors.)
2) Allow a greater range of allocations. This could be accomplished by 1), or changed directly from what it is now.
3) Generate background story before points allocation; OR allow selectable background story; OR remove background stories entirely from points-based characters.

Reference
Pre-RFE Thread
Issue Details
Issue Number 4259
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version ADOM r66 (v2.2.0)
Implemented Version ADOM 2.3.0 (r73)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 5
Votes against this feature 1
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




02-02-2016 09:43 PM
Ancient Member
I haven't played around with the PBG system enough to have a good feeling for how it works. I think I agree with the general principle that a random character should have, or at least have the capacity to have, better average stats than a PBG character.

I think the fixed background story thing is really essential. Either have it apply background before PBG starts, or just don't apply the modifiers for background story at all. The advantage to PBG is supposed to be that you can get exactly the stats you want--so if you want to start literate, or want to start with 18 Ma for extra talent, or want to start with 15/15 Wi/To for Immune to Pain, I think you should be able to do it, without having to worry about having some random modifers thrown at your stats afterward. That's the benefit you get, and the penalty you pay is that you could, at least in theory, get better stats if you roll randomly. Getting to choose your stats, and then having them randomly altered, doesn't make a lot of sense, and I suspect that a lot of new players trying this system who might not be familiar with how birth story works would assume that it is a bug.

One question that I think needs some careful thought is whether PBG characters should be able to get stats that are outside of the normal ranges for their race/class, while paying a hefty penalty to do so. I suspect that a lot of people had assumed that this is what they'd be able to do--if you wanted to roll a Mist Elf Wizard with 20 To or a Troll Barbarian with 20 Le, you could do it (or at least try to do it, assuming there were enough points to make the purchase), but you'd end up with a lot of cripplingly low stats elsewhere to make up for it. I understand the reluctance to change this. At the same time, if you can't make this sort of change, then PBG is fairly limited in terms of what it can do. It stops you from getting an outright bad character, but it doesn't let you do much more than fool around on the margins with your stats.

[edit]As an aside, one note on being able to "fix" your stats without worrying about birth story is the talent that you get if your stats are divisible by 7. I think there ought to be a different way to handle this in the point-based system so that players don't have to add up their stat points to make them exactly divisible by seven. Maybe you can buy the extra telent for a couple of your points or something. I don't know.

02-02-2016 11:25 PM
One idea could be to spend extra points to increase the stat potentials once maxed too, but without some limits the race differences would lose a lot of their meaning. Did everyone also always max St and To in this for potentials?

02-03-2016 12:16 AM
Senior Member
OR remove background stories entirely from points-based characters.
Alternative: select background story based on stats, i.e. if you have selected to give a Toughness modifier of -2, you get background events that explain how you got that modifier.

02-03-2016 04:23 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by SinsI
Alternative: select background story based on stats, i.e. if you have selected to give a Toughness modifier of -2, you get background events that explain how you got that modifier.
My name is Dogbreath, and I approve of this message.

02-03-2016 06:07 AM
Member
I'm going to quote myself from the other thread(since this discussion may become fragmented)

So I've been reading through the discussion and mulling it over. It sounds like you guys want a way to combine minmaxing with some degree of randomization without having it be the same every time. Well, if I can make an exceedingly stupid suggestion...

There was a game called EYE: divine cybermancy which came out a few years back. I didn't much care for it, but it had a lot of good ideas with absolutely horrible execution. One of them involved stats being determined by random rune type things. I'm kind of beating around the bush but what if instead of buying attributes directly, you purchased "training"?

For example. Strength Training 1 would give +2 strength. Strength training 2 would give +2 strength and -1 dex. Strength training 3 would give +3 strength, -1 dex, -1 toughness, and +1 will This is because actual strength training often comes at great cost to flexibility IRL. Of course they do stretching and stuff, but body builders make physical strength their primary goal. As the player spends points to dedicate to this training, the bulking and cutting means they become more and more muscular and less fatty(a cost to toughness), but the strict training regimen increases their will because it takes a lot of work to keep to it.

But if a character such as a duelist prefers a different style of training, they could go for...

Fencers Training 1 which gives 2 dex, 1 strength, and -1 toughness. Fencers training 2 gives another 2 dex, 1 strength, 1 perception, but -2 toughness. Fencers Training 3 would give 2 dex, no strength, +2 perception, and -1 toughness. All this because fencers training requires a good chunk of muscle, but beyond a certain point they focus exclusively on speed. As they continue training their muscles develop a bit more, but they start to become supremely fast and acutely perceptive of enemy weaknesses.

Sorry if I rambled, but a point buy where you buy "skills" which determine attributes could solve the dilemma. Obviously these skills have no effect except on attribute generation(and maybe some notes in background)

07-15-2017 06:57 PM

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