General UI: Newly generated spellcasters already should have learned their spells
issueid=4845 07-14-2017 02:32 PM
The Creator
Number of reported issues by adom-admin: 490
General UI: Newly generated spellcasters already should have learned their spells

Right now ADOM forces spellcasters to read their spellbooks before they can cast any spells. They should receive one free reading from each initial spellbook in order to be better prepared for their adventures. It just does not seem logical that they finished their training without memorizing the spells that were given to them.
Issue Details
Issue Number 4845
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 3
Suggested Version ADOM 2.3.0 (r73)
Implemented Version ADOM 2.3.0 (r73)
Milestone "Ease of Use" UI
Votes for this feature 10
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users adom-admin
Tags (none)




07-14-2017 08:28 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Duplicate of 4188 =)

By the way there are a lot of reasons explaining why the change isn't widely accepted by the community.

07-14-2017 10:41 PM
Member
I'd rather not have the spellbook auto-read, but choose when to read it. B/U/C status matters, and I'd lilke to control that before reading.

07-14-2017 11:04 PM
Junior Member
I don't really agree with the problem that the other thread was talking about. One free reading really isn't going to make much of difference.

07-15-2017 02:42 AM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by Jarinex
I don't really agree with the problem that the other thread was talking about. One free reading really isn't going to make much of difference.
I believe every book has an intrinsic # of readings. Would this be truly free, in effect adding one, or would it diminish by one?

07-15-2017 10:11 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
If this is to be implemented, I'd do this way: as soon as PC is generated in the background try reading the book for free (not costing a charge from the book) and with no bad consequences until the spell is learned. But tru only up to X times (say, up to 3 or up to 6). So that
1. Everyone will strat with their books still fresh giving them a chance to fortify their learning, bless the book or do whatever is needed.
2. If a trollish necromancer can't really learn Wish he somehow was lucky to start with, he won't get a free knowledge of it.
3. Under the normal conditions spellcasters will start with their spells learned.

Not sure how to balance it in a batter way.

07-17-2017 08:39 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
If this is to be implemented, I'd do this way: as soon as PC is generated in the background try reading the book for free (not costing a charge from the book) and with no bad consequences until the spell is learned. But tru only up to X times (say, up to 3 or up to 6). So that
1. Everyone will strat with their books still fresh giving them a chance to fortify their learning, bless the book or do whatever is needed.
2. If a trollish necromancer can't really learn Wish he somehow was lucky to start with, he won't get a free knowledge of it.
3. Under the normal conditions spellcasters will start with their spells learned.

Not sure how to balance it in a batter way.
Inconsistencies (not being guaranteed whether you learn or not the spell beforehand) can make the game more confusing, so I would advise against that. Of course only playing the game in practice will tell.

07-17-2017 11:34 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Laukku
Inconsistencies (not being guaranteed whether you learn or not the spell beforehand) can make the game more confusing, so I would advise against that. Of course only playing the game in practice will tell.
There never was a consistency in ADOM. Most of the stuff is random and even though not guaranteed. This affects almost all the stuff related to the character creation.

07-17-2017 12:21 PM
Ancient Member
I can only imagine how useful this would be for a wizard who starts with wish or create item ;)

07-17-2017 01:46 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blank4u47
I can only imagine how useful this would be for a wizard who starts with wish or create item ;)
With wish it would be as useless as ever.
Just casting it from memory would require end-game amounts of PP.
I'd just remove spellbook of wish from the possible starting books altogether - they are useless at that point other than generating gold when sold, if they don't get drenched sooner.
The spell cannot be cast early, does not provide even a small utilitarian use at any point and with the existing casting cost, comes into play in the late-end-game, if at all.
Not to mention random attribute draining by 10 points.

Create item would also require huge amount of power points, making it impossible to cast the spell at any point in the early game.
Even mid-game chars would have to be elven wizards with lots of PP to make a use of the book.
At that point, those few that don't know it already, will discover how utterly useless the spell is, generating heaps of shitty random items at an exorbitant cost.

07-17-2017 04:46 PM
Member
This issue seems to be a solution in search of a problem. It's not that hard to figure out you need to read the spellbook. And I don't see an immersion factor - a new Wizard can easily be given spellbooks heading out the door and told to go kick butt.

07-17-2017 05:51 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
With wish it would be as useless as ever.
Just casting it from memory would require end-game amounts of PP.
I'd just remove spellbook of wish from the possible starting books altogether - they are useless at that point other than generating gold when sold, if they don't get drenched sooner.
The spell cannot be cast early, does not provide even a small utilitarian use at any point and with the existing casting cost, comes into play in the late-end-game, if at all.
Not to mention random attribute draining by 10 points.
I don't support. There are a lot of more useless items one might be starting with. This is just part of them game. Needless to say that not everyone will find it so useless. If you start with Wish spellbook you're already on your way becoming an archmage. If you get it learned - you're half-way though. Yeah. That boring disappointing archmage...

By the way, didn't you though about newbies that might aknowledge existence of the spell by seeing this spellbook and die in out from starvation reading it right in the beginning of their journey? I had similar experience reading Wish the first time. Although it wasn't a starting spellbook I admit it was cool experience.

07-17-2017 10:21 PM
Junior Member
Is this really such a downside if this is implemented? I fully expect reasonable things will be done by the creator here with regards to the uber-powerful spells. Overall this is going to help with avoiding some of the early-game set-up tedium, so I'm all for it. The spells learned by a level 1 player hardly have a significant impact on a full adventure.

Also, from a game realism point-of-view: why would any self-respecting spell-caster have wandered into the Drakalor chain, ready for adventure, and not prepared by reading their spellbooks beforehand?

07-18-2017 12:53 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
With wish it would be as useless as ever.
Just casting it from memory would require end-game amounts of PP.
I'd just remove spellbook of wish from the possible starting books altogether - they are useless at that point other than generating gold when sold, if they don't get drenched sooner.
The spell cannot be cast early, does not provide even a small utilitarian use at any point and with the existing casting cost, comes into play in the late-end-game, if at all.
Not to mention random attribute draining by 10 points.

Create item would also require huge amount of power points, making it impossible to cast the spell at any point in the early game.
Even mid-game chars would have to be elven wizards with lots of PP to make a use of the book.
At that point, those few that don't know it already, will discover how utterly useless the spell is, generating heaps of shitty random items at an exorbitant cost.
No kidding. I guess my attempt at sarcasm didn't translate well using text. Oh well! My 3 year old still thinks I'm funny :)
But seriously, I can just imagine some new player being like sweet! I can get free wishes?! Let's cast it... blahblahblah y/n... y of course! Dead. -1666 hp. Wtf?

07-18-2017 07:16 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blank4u47
No kidding. I guess my attempt at sarcasm didn't translate well using text. Oh well! My 3 year old still thinks I'm funny :)
But seriously, I can just imagine some new player being like sweet! I can get free wishes?! Let's cast it... blahblahblah y/n... y of course! Dead. -1666 hp. Wtf?
Given this will only happen once and at the start of the game, I don't see that it's too huge a problem.

I think it would be better to remove ANY spellbook that a character cannot cast at the beginning of the game from the possible starting spellbooks however.

07-19-2017 05:54 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by shockeroo
I think it would be better to remove ANY spellbook that a character cannot cast at the beginning of the game from the possible starting spellbooks however.
I'd rather create an another split RFE and check out how well this idea is supported. I don't believe itis much.

07-19-2017 04:15 PM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
I'd rather create an another split RFE and check out how well this idea is supported. I don't believe itis much.
Or just drop the whole thing... Has anyone had a problem or heard of anyone having a problem with spelbooks in their initial inventory?

07-20-2017 05:50 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by shockeroo
Given this will only happen once and at the start of the game, I don't see that it's too huge a problem.
Does it even happen at all, now? Would have assumed starving state gives you the 'want to continue?' prompt.

07-20-2017 09:39 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by auricbond
Does it even happen at all, now? Would have assumed starving state gives you the 'want to continue?' prompt.
This is somewhat different for wish, as it drains the satiation status much like it does power points, irrespective of time, especially if you're casting from HP.

07-21-2017 06:38 AM
The Creator
Sorry, I simply do not agree with the "this does not need to be implemented" arguments. Just try to watch a new player getting into ADOM without help, being completely unable to cope all the commands and vomit in frustration after a few minutes. It absolutely makes sense to implement this and thus it is implemented.

It is a free reading BTW (of middle result to not be overpowering) (and even if it weren't I do not believe that it would change much - that's over-interpreting).

It makes sense to forbid Wish and Create Item in the beginning, I agree with that (and added this as a new feature).

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