Inconsistent monster alignment
issueid=5132 09-28-2017 03:23 AM
Member
Number of reported issues by kNightCrawler: 8
Inconsistent monster alignment
Non-neutral monsters (can) become neutral

While I had assumed that harpies are (always) chaotic, I decided to test this further after losing a character to a sacrifice by a harpy on a neutral altar.
In my tests - which can be reproduced from the attached svg by wishing for a harpy and casting Know Alignment on it - I found that harpies are sometimes generated chaotic, other times generated neutral. Sometimes, one that was generated chaotic then turned neutral...!
I'm guessing alignment variation shouldn't occur... unless monsters now think and reflect as individuals...?

EDIT: Any monster tested - chaotic or lawful - switched to neutral alignment when they became hostile. This certainly seems like a bug.
Issue Details
Issue Number 5132
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 10
Status Fixed
Priority 6
Affected Version ADOM 2.3.3
Fixed Version ADOM 2.3.4
Milestone (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 1
Users unable to reproduce bug 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




09-28-2017 12:30 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Oh, finally a use for that 'Know Allignment' spell... :)

09-28-2017 02:14 PM
Senior Member
Actually, it would be a pretty cool feature if monsters were sometimes generated with different alignments.
Imagine if the chances of an orc being C/N/L are 90%/9%/1%.
For one thing, it could explain why you occasionally meet a neutral or friendly orc.
For another, if you break open an orc room and live-sacrifice everyone inside on an altar, you could get unlucky and anger your god! It adds an element of risk to live sacrifices, which is currently very easy (maybe too easy).
And yes, it would give a use for the Know Alignment spell.
So if this is a bug, I request it not be fixed--but retained and even possibly extended. Probably some monsters (demons and unicorns) should never deviate from their base alignment, but the nonmagical ones should be able to.

09-28-2017 09:47 PM
Senior Member
I don't know if it related, but i was just sacrificed by hobgoblin (which i'm pretty sure should be chaotic) on neutral altar while i was lawful.

09-29-2017 12:12 AM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by AlterAsc
I don't know if it related, but i was just sacrificed by hobgoblin (which i'm pretty sure should be chaotic) on neutral altar while i was lawful.
Yep, that's exactly the problem here. All hostile monsters seem to have their alignment as neutral...

09-29-2017 01:06 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by BenMathiesen
Actually, it would be a pretty cool feature if monsters were sometimes generated with different alignments.
Imagine if the chances of an orc being C/N/L are 90%/9%/1%.
For one thing, it could explain why you occasionally meet a neutral or friendly orc.
For another, if you break open an orc room and live-sacrifice everyone inside on an altar, you could get unlucky and anger your god! It adds an element of risk to live sacrifices, which is currently very easy (maybe too easy).
And yes, it would give a use for the Know Alignment spell.
So if this is a bug, I request it not be fixed--but retained and even possibly extended. Probably some monsters (demons and unicorns) should never deviate from their base alignment, but the nonmagical ones should be able to.
I'll second that. Yeah, some monsters are meant to be inheritly good, evil or neutral but some might be able have variable alignment just like PC can do. It feel unusual, but... Why not?

09-29-2017 01:39 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by BenMathiesen
Actually, it would be a pretty cool feature if monsters were sometimes generated with different alignments.
Imagine if the chances of an orc being C/N/L are 90%/9%/1%.
For one thing, it could explain why you occasionally meet a neutral or friendly orc.
For another, if you break open an orc room and live-sacrifice everyone inside on an altar, you could get unlucky and anger your god! It adds an element of risk to live sacrifices, which is currently very easy (maybe too easy).
And yes, it would give a use for the Know Alignment spell.
So if this is a bug, I request it not be fixed--but retained and even possibly extended. Probably some monsters (demons and unicorns) should never deviate from their base alignment, but the nonmagical ones should be able to.
The problem here is what happens when you walk over an altar like AltarAsc did, and a random monster that is normally not that alignment sacrifices you. A lot of people would probably get pissed off about it, so I don't think that would be a real fun thing to have.

Although it would give a use for the "Know Alignment spell", it might not be the worth the pain.

09-29-2017 11:27 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Jarinex
The problem here is what happens when you walk over an altar like AltarAsc did, and a random monster that is normally not that alignment sacrifices you. A lot of people would probably get pissed off about it, so I don't think that would be a real fun thing to have.

Although it would give a use for the "Know Alignment spell", it might not be the worth the pain.
Actually, I think it would only be a problem until players learn of that change, get used to it, and after that point it would merely demand more caution when dealing with altars. People would still have many options at their disposal: replicating the same tactics used with chaotic altars, finding out the alignment of the present monsters in some way (spells, abilities etc.) and so on.

Though if this were to really be a feature, it might be a good idea to increase the ways in which one can find out a monster's alignment. That could include wands, scrolls, possibly a spell/scroll/wand that would reveal the alignment of ALL monsters nearby. Alignment could also affect the monster's AI in some fashion. Not in any supremely obvious way that you could always tell it at a glance, but it could react differently to certain situations and interactions. This last one isn't fleshed out at all yet, but it could possibly be the most interesting. It might work in a way that if you observed a monster's behavior for a while, you could probably find out its alignment, but the spells/stuff would still be more effective should you have access to them in that they work instantly and will tell you the alignment with 100% certainty. (These AI changes could include anything basic like different attack tactics, whether certain actions anger them or not, or more obscure ones like, say, if you drop an item on the floor, and there is a non-hostile lawful and intelligent monster nearby, it might feel inclined to pick it up and hand it to you, saying you dropped it.)

As a matter of fact, this is starting to look like a feature request, I might just post it there too. Do tell me what you think of it if you'd like to though.

09-29-2017 06:11 PM
mtf mtf is offline
Junior Member
All monsters turning neutral after becoming hostile definitely sounds like a bug, not a feature. Also, having to check a monster's alignment constantly when trying to make live sacrifices on an altar doesn't sound like it would add anything positive to the game... rather, more tedium.

09-29-2017 09:14 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by mtf
All monsters turning neutral after becoming hostile definitely sounds like a bug, not a feature. Also, having to check a monster's alignment constantly when trying to make live sacrifices on an altar doesn't sound like it would add anything positive to the game... rather, more tedium.
Agreed. The game is tedious enough as is. There are plenty of ways to make the gameplay more interesting and unique, but this is definitively not one of them.

09-29-2017 09:38 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by mtf
All monsters turning neutral after becoming hostile definitely sounds like a bug, not a feature. Also, having to check a monster's alignment constantly when trying to make live sacrifices on an altar doesn't sound like it would add anything positive to the game... rather, more tedium.
Oh no, you misunderstand me. The current situation as described is obviously weird and seems to be a bug, it's just that the discussion has wandered into a related topic, about monster alignment variance. Because let's face it, right now, monster alignment is a redundant variable since a monster's type determines it, and that also makes some related gameplay elements (like Know Alignment and a paladin class power) almost entirely useless. The question is, how best (if at all) to introduce game systems that would transform monster alignment and related spells into something more meaningful beyond just categorizing monsters, but not providing any useful information other than what is already seen instantly by looking at them.

Also, as I said, introducing some randomness to monster alignment would clearly only work together with adding new ways to find it out, hell, possibly even ways to change it.

10-04-2017 07:46 PM
The Creator
Fixed. This was introduced by some of the adjustments for the "pampered" game mode :-(

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