Rename baby dragons
issueid=5512 10-27-2017 11:53 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by _Ln_: 97
Rename baby dragons

The latest version added "baby stone dragons" which led me to this RFE, but it turns out the problem was present even before.

Right now we have:
  • black baby dragons, blue baby dragons, karmic baby dragons, red baby dragons, white baby dragons
  • baby water dragon, baby stone dragons


I'm an English expert, but I think that the second option is correct (it's not a baby dragon that happens to be red, it's a red dragon which has not yet matured). At the very least, these monsters should use the same naming scheme.

Also linking http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=4770

Also, the death message for karmic dragon breath is "was blasted by a baby karmic dragon", which does not conform to their name.
Issue Details
Issue Number 5512
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version Unknown
Implemented Version ADOM 3.0.3
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 9
Votes against this feature 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




10-27-2017 12:33 PM
Ancient Member
I am not a native English speaker either, but in theory age adjectives come before color adjectives, which in turn come before material:

http://www.professorgrammar.com/opshacom2.shtml

So I would say that the naming in ADOM is correct. Or at least, not incorrect.

Of course, I'm aware that you can argue that the "red" in "red dragon" is not actually a color adjective, but an adjective describing race/species... then I have no idea where it would go!

Not voting for or against because it seems like a really subtle issue. We need an English linguist. An equivalent case for IRL creatures would be with black bears, how does it work with them in English? In Google I can find "black baby bear" and "baby black bear", so maybe not even native speakers agree on that.

10-27-2017 01:12 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
I am not a native English speaker either, but in theory age adjectives come before color adjectives, which in turn come before material:

http://www.professorgrammar.com/opshacom2.shtml

So I would say that the naming in ADOM is correct. Or at least, not incorrect.

Of course, I'm aware that you can argue that the "red" in "red dragon" is not actually a color adjective, but an adjective describing race/species... then I have no idea where it would go!

Not voting for or against because it seems like a really subtle issue. We need an English linguist. An equivalent case for IRL creatures would be with black bears, how does it work with them in English? In Google I can find "black baby bear" and "baby black bear", so maybe not even native speakers agree on that.
Huh? That's exactly what I'm suggesting -- so that all baby dragons are "baby <foo> dragon". Moreover, both explanations (color as in color and color as in the part of the species name) favor this form. And mean that ADOM naming is in fact incorrect.

10-27-2017 03:36 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Well, the fact it's not aligned already makes it a subject to fix whatever is correct

10-27-2017 04:00 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
Huh? That's exactly what I'm suggesting -- so that all baby dragons are "baby <foo> dragon". Moreover, both explanations (color as in color and color as in the part of the species name) favor this form. And mean that ADOM naming is in fact incorrect.
No, if you take color as in color, then according to the rules I linked,

age before material: baby water dragon

color before age: red baby dragon

Exactly as it's in ADOM now.

10-27-2017 04:50 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
No, if you take color as in color, then according to the rules I linked,

age before material: baby water dragon

color before age: red baby dragon

Exactly as it's in ADOM now.
The thing you linked places age before both color AND material...
Besides, how can you justify baby/ancient being in different order when they are both age descriptors (red baby dragon vs ancient red dragon)?

10-27-2017 06:57 PM
Senior Member
As a native English speaker, all I can tell you is that baby <foo> dragon sounds better to me for all cases.

But if you're interested in exceptions, this is a fun article:
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/201...t-know-we-know

10-27-2017 09:21 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Grond
The thing you linked places age before both color AND material...
Um, yes. Sorry. Apparently my mind short-circuited at some point.

11-06-2017 12:50 AM
Ancient Member
Why not replace baby with young? Feels like a more obvious choice when the idea is to describe the age.

11-06-2017 08:25 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
Why not replace baby with young? Feels like a more obvious choice when the idea is to describe the age.
To me the "baby" descriptor strongly implies that this is a less-powerful version of a mature dragon or, at least, a version that is much easier to defeat in combat. To me, the descriptor "young" might mean less powerful, but I'd be unsure if it's less powerful than a mature dragon by much. ("young" is a more vague descriptor of youth, to me.)

And as a native English speaker "baby red dragon" sounds more correct than "red baby dragon" .. but as a native English speaker more focussed on science subjects I can't articulate *why* it feels more correct. :)

11-13-2017 06:40 PM
Junior Member
The "unwritten" rules of English adjective ordering support this RFE - and so do I. Baby <foo> dragon is the way to go.

Additionally, if you consider "red dragon" as a distinct species in its own right, as per ADOM's inspirations and metaphysics, as opposed to a dragon that just happens to be reddish? Then no other descriptors should be placed between those terms.

As for replacing the word "baby" itself, potential options could include "infant", "immature", or even a suffix of "hatchling" ("red dragon hatchling"), but I don't see anything wrong with the original term. "Young" is too vague a descriptor to be useful and yet too specific a piece of information for the PC to be aware of. That is, the PC doesn't know how old the dragon actually is, but they can tell the dragon's approximate life stage by its size and physical traits.

11-14-2017 11:50 AM
The Creator
Actually I liked the idea of renaming all "baby <foo> dragons" to "<foo> dragon hatchlings" - except for Blup, to even more stress this very special case :-)

11-17-2017 02:05 PM
The Creator
This was already implemented for ADOM 3.0.2 but I forgot to mark it as such. I've now marked it for 3.0.3 so that it shows up in some changelog.

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