Possible to get absurd attributes by holding down 'h' in ID
issueid=6184 04-18-2018 05:22 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Grond: 971
Possible to get absurd attributes by holding down 'h' in ID

Since using stairs doesn't take a turn, it is possible to hold down 'h' in the infinite dungeon to scum for room entrance effects. This nets you attribute scores of 1 St, 99 Le, 99 Wi, 99 Ap in something like 150 turns (most of which are spent wiping mud off of your face). Quite abusable in conjunction with potions of exchange.
Issue Details
Issue Number 6184
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 10 (Steam)
Status Unconfirmed
Priority 6
Affected Version ADOM 3.1.5
Fixed Version ADOM 3.3.0
Milestone Important Bugfixes
Users able to reproduce bug 1
Users unable to reproduce bug 0
Assigned Users adom-admin
Tags (none)




09-07-2018 04:09 PM
The Creator
Fixed.

This petition for a change to Unconfirmed was accepted
09-18-2018 07:16 PM
Ancient Member
I'm still getting stat increases from holding down 'h' in ID. Granted, I haven't yet invested an hour to get to 99s, but how is this supposed to be fixed?

EDIT: Invested the time, got 99s. This is definitely not fixed in 3.3.0.
 

12-13-2019 07:11 PM
Ancient Member
This is not fixed in 3.3.3 either. I was thinking about this recently, and while the change to stair behavior was good in the abstract (I assume it was intended to avoid instadeaths, e.g. getting blown up by a vortex as soon as you descend), it's ultimately incompatible with the ID. I was thinking about some possible solutions and think there is one that works in the general case. See the list below.

  • Won't Work: Reverting stair behavior to 1.1.1 but making sure monsters don't spawn next to PC so the PC has time to act. Same problem as now, abusable (more abusable, even).
  • Won't Work: In DCSS, you get a free turn the first time you generate a level, but never again. Notably, this means that immediately going back up is not necessarily the best option because mobs at range will have a chance to act [using stairs takes quite a bit of time], which is attractive in terms of forcing players to thing through tactics. However, since every level in the ID is procedurally generated this won't work as a general case and any special casing would likely reintroduce the instadeath problem.
  • Should Work: Revert stair behavior to 1.1.1 (i.e. it takes turns) but set the energy cost to zero or some extremely low number if you aren't followed by a monster. If you are followed by a monster, assign an energy cost for stairs (in 1.1.1 this was 1000). Rationale would be that taking stairs with nothing around is easy but taking stairs when you're being hounded by mobs is quite difficult. I like this because it fixes some other aspects of ADOM -- right now stairdancing is easier than ever (e.g. for Big Room) because monsters don't hit you when they follow you up. It used to be that you had to think ever so slightly more tactically when determining whether to run upstairs because everything got a free hit, and this was dangerous (I have definitely died this way). This would also require more tactical play (achieves same result as previous point) when descending to dangerous mob directly next to stairs because you would need to evaluate your options on an unknown level, instead of the current tactic of immediately retreating to a known level and only then evaluating options. (also, small point, but speedrun turncounts are artificially depressed because of new staircase behavior -- by up to a couple hundred turns, which can be pretty significant.)
  • Would Work: Special case the ID.

12-14-2019 12:55 AM
Ancient Member
Wouldn’t it just get fixed if you remove room effects from stairway rooms? Seems like the easiest solution to implement.

12-14-2019 03:14 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blank4u47
Wouldn’t it just get fixed if you remove room effects from stairway rooms? Seems like the easiest solution to implement.
Removing room effects from stairway rooms is a fix (I would categorize that as one of many options under "special case the ID"), but this is a symptom of a larger broken mechanic where monsters get no actions while you can use stairs indefinitely. The broken mechanic manifests in other ways: for instance, stairhopping is now an extremely turn-efficient and not risky way to generate specific mobs (such as blink dogs). It's also extremely turn-efficient and not risky to regenerate ID levels until a better staircase layout is generated (for experienced players who can eyeball that). If you wind up next to a dangerous mob that can't see in the dark, stairhopping for a dark room will get rid of it. Etc. In regular gameplay, the stairs are a bigger safety valve than they used to be because monsters don't get an attack when you drag them up/down and in certain situations you are guaranteed an escape by the upstairs because of the clockwise-starting-from-12 manner in which ADOM places mobs around the PC when taking stairs. This also makes stairdancing easier (even though it was already an amazing tactic) because now you don't have to endure any attacks when taking the stairs; dragging mobs off the level now comes with no downside whereas previously -- even on Coward -- there was still *some* downside.

Since the goal of setting the time consumed by taking stairs to zero was likely to avoid frustrating instadeaths, it makes sense to look at how to achieve that in a similar way without the same drawbacks.

(I just tested this to confirm:) In DCSS, normal movement takes 10 auts (for a normal pc without specific equipment, racial advantages, etc.) while using stairs takes 25 auts -- except the first time you enter a level, nothing gets a move before you do. So, taking a down staircase to a new area will never allow you to be instakilled by the monsters there, but panicking and trying to ascend instead of evaluating your escape options first *can* get you killed. I think this is a good mechanic: the game will not instakill you, but it also isn't obligated to provide an easy escape from a dangerous mob and you may need a much better plan than "immediately go back".

Obviously ADOM is a very different game than DCSS, but this mechanic (except the instadeath part) was the same in ADOM until the change to stairs requiring 0 turn count. And so, I think reverting back to stairs being dangerous to use when next to mobs while eliminating instadeaths fixes many of the problems that arise with the current implementation.

05-26-2021 03:13 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta
Removing room effects from stairway rooms is a fix (I would categorize that as one of many options under "special case the ID"), but this is a symptom of a larger broken mechanic where monsters get no actions while you can use stairs indefinitely. The broken mechanic manifests in other ways: for instance, stairhopping is now an extremely turn-efficient and not risky way to generate specific mobs (such as blink dogs). It's also extremely turn-efficient and not risky to regenerate ID levels until a better staircase layout is generated (for experienced players who can eyeball that). If you wind up next to a dangerous mob that can't see in the dark, stairhopping for a dark room will get rid of it. Etc. In regular gameplay, the stairs are a bigger safety valve than they used to be because monsters don't get an attack when you drag them up/down and in certain situations you are guaranteed an escape by the upstairs because of the clockwise-starting-from-12 manner in which ADOM places mobs around the PC when taking stairs. This also makes stairdancing easier (even though it was already an amazing tactic) because now you don't have to endure any attacks when taking the stairs; dragging mobs off the level now comes with no downside whereas previously -- even on Coward -- there was still *some* downside.
Generally agree. Getting back into ADOM for the first time in years now that it's on Steam etc, and the first descent into the bugcaves was trivial. Used to be wasting a turn climbing up while surrounded by eight greater claw bugs was risky, now if you have teleport it's about the safest thing there is.

08-12-2023 08:56 AM
Ancient Member
'Fixed' was a double entendre. He doesn't want it to behave properly. Like I said: make bugs features. I mean figuring this out is fucking clever, and if you can't refrain from doing it there is something wrong with my face.

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