UI/UX: Rename game modes
issueid=5336 10-14-2017 12:30 AM
The Creator
Number of reported issues by adom-admin: 499
UI/UX: Rename game modes

According to our test players the advice from the community was wrong:
  • The "easy" name is not attractive as people fear to miss something when playing it and are kind of ashamed when starting it.
  • Classical sometimes sounds easier than it is.
Thus I consider renaming gaming modes once more to:
  • Tutorial -> Easy (tutorial)
  • Easy -> Standard or Normal Average
  • Classic (roguelike) -> Hard (roguelike)
Issue Details
Issue Number 5336
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 1 - Highest
Suggested Version ADOM 2.3.5
Implemented Version ADOM 2.3.6
Milestone "Ease of Use" UI
Votes for this feature 1
Votes against this feature 7
Assigned Users adom-admin
Tags (none)




10-16-2017 06:45 PM
Member
I would hate to see the tradition of Rogue and Roguelike diminished, and ADOM has been a standard-bearer. So anything that implies that the Standard Roguelike version is not the standard game would take away from the value.

10-16-2017 07:21 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by mitres
So anything that implies that the Standard Roguelike version is not the standard game would take away from the value.
That could be explained in the descriptions.
On another note, I think that Adom's value is totally somewhere else than in the names of the difficulty levels :)

10-16-2017 07:47 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Harkila
That could be explained in the descriptions.
On another note, I think that Adom's value is totally somewhere else than in the names of the difficulty levels :)
Indeed, but its value is related to its perception in the eyes of players, and that is affected by how they choose to play it, which in turn depends on how the game introduces itself and what mode it encourages.

10-16-2017 07:58 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Taederias
Indeed, but its value is related to its perception in the eyes of players, and that is affected by how they choose to play it, which in turn depends on how the game introduces itself and what mode it encourages.
I disagree. :) What you say is possibly true to potential hardcore Adom players, which is most likely a fraction of the group of people who are interested in giving it a try. And that group is what is being targeted now. The likelihood for someone who becomes interested enough in the game to become a potential hardcore roguelike player, but not fall for it just for the name of the difficulty level back in the beginning of the game, is negligible. And as for veteran players, they know the value of the game already.

10-16-2017 09:12 PM
Junior Member
I agree with most of the people who have stated ideas.

I think it should be:

Easy (tutorial)
Standard/Story Mode
Roguelike

10-16-2017 09:31 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Harkila
I disagree. :) What you say is possibly true to potential hardcore Adom players, which is most likely a fraction of the group of people who are interested in giving it a try. And that group is what is being targeted now. The likelihood for someone who becomes interested enough in the game to become a potential hardcore roguelike player, but not fall for it just for the name of the difficulty level back in the beginning of the game, is negligible. And as for veteran players, they know the value of the game already.
Wow, this thread is certainly starting to get long. :) But anyway, I can only say what I've already mentioned: using your "hardcore" terminology, I think the whole point of this debate on my part is how to best communicate the difficulty levels to those who are not "absolutely hardcore" in that they don't automatically go with the hardest difficulty, but who could potentially enjoy that should they give it a try. So yes, if the term "easy" drives away those on the more casual side, those who would not be receptive the challenges of the, let's call it "roguelike" mode, then it's probably better changed, as was the suggestion. But the "roguelike" mode should invite those who want something more and not scare them off either.

All this could be remedied to great effect with detailed descriptions, as many have said. These might be somewhat problematic to display in ASCII mode, but then again: a) I don't really see newcomers to the roguelike genre playing in ASCII mode, b) there could be a [M]ore or [D]escription (or something similar) option upon selecting a difficulty that displays detailed information on the whole screen. Or just a [M]ore option that displays the descriptions of all the possible options at once (with paging, probably).

10-16-2017 09:42 PM
Junior Member
Honestly, I think not calling easy, easy, is just a lie. They ARE missing out on a lot of the game.


Just look at this, at level 1, you can survive a hit from a Greater Titan(probly the deadliest endgame monster)

I think it might be so easy they get bored of the game, or teaches them very bad habits for when they play the real mode.


I really hope players don't get any achievments or anything for playing on this incredibly easy mode.

10-16-2017 09:47 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Majora
Honestly, I think not calling easy, easy, is just a lie. They ARE missing out on a lot of the game.


Just look at this, at level 1, you can survive a hit from a Greater Titan.

https://imgur.com/XdCaJEE

Ireally hope players don't get any achievments or anything for playing on this incredibly easy mode.
Um what?! I mean, RNG is RNG but that seems weird. But on another note, how in the hell would that have happened? You met a greater titan in the wilderness at level 1? That seems more like a bug than anything...

10-16-2017 09:55 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Taederias
Um what?! I mean, RNG is RNG but that seems weird. But on another note, how in the hell would that have happened? You met a greater titan in the wilderness at level 1? That seems more like a bug than anything...
You can test this yourself, if you have prerelease access.

Just spawn level 1 and use exploration mode to summon a greater titan. Even with RNG I think there is not much excuse for a such a pathetically weak character(with pathetic PV also) to survive hits from one of, if not the most dangerous endgame monster.


I really like that The Creator is trying to make the game friendlier and expand the playerbase, but I am not sure if this is the best way to do it.

10-16-2017 10:05 PM
Ancient Member
Some context on that image, since it was originally posted on Discord by me:
  1. This is using the "pampered" balance setting, which is one setting easier than the one used in the current Easy mode.
  2. As far as I can tell, this is a once-in-a-while protection from one-shots. Even if the pictured character were to immediately heal to full, they would be killed by the next hit.
  3. The character is a mist elf, so it's not quite as ridiculous as it looks. Still, the greater titan's attack is dealing 15 less damage than the minimum.

10-16-2017 10:10 PM
The Creator
Quote Originally Posted by Carter
I would name them

Exploration
Softcore
Hardcore

if you want players to understand the differences and you already have games like Diablo 3 / Path of Exile which means explaining it is a bit easier.

Obviously would mean the old "easy" mode doesn't have permadeath.
Feature-wise it has permadeath - because that IMHO is an exciting part of roguelikes. Hunger on the other hand... well, I'm not too sure about that. It probably caters to a certain type of players (and I obviously count myself amongs them as I have been an ardent defender of hunger for "the real experience"). But I understand that _many_ people view this differently.

10-16-2017 10:14 PM
The Creator
Quote Originally Posted by Taederias
Wow, this thread is certainly starting to get long. :) But anyway, I can only say what I've already mentioned: using your "hardcore" terminology, I think the whole point of this debate on my part is how to best communicate the difficulty levels to those who are not "absolutely hardcore" in that they don't automatically go with the hardest difficulty, but who could potentially enjoy that should they give it a try. So yes, if the term "easy" drives away those on the more casual side, those who would not be receptive the challenges of the, let's call it "roguelike" mode, then it's probably better changed, as was the suggestion. But the "roguelike" mode should invite those who want something more and not scare them off either.

All this could be remedied to great effect with detailed descriptions, as many have said. These might be somewhat problematic to display in ASCII mode, but then again: a) I don't really see newcomers to the roguelike genre playing in ASCII mode, b) there could be a [M]ore or [D]escription (or something similar) option upon selecting a difficulty that displays detailed information on the whole screen. Or just a [M]ore option that displays the descriptions of all the possible options at once (with paging, probably).
As you will see in the next release, it already has those descriptions even in ASCII mode. Although I'm really sure and agree with your assessment, that the new player base I am trying to reach, to 99% doesn't care about ASCII and quite to the contrary feels repelled by it. I already received that comment from our playtesters - although I would rate the persons as true hardcore computer games who spend hundreds of hours with indie games. ASCII no longer is as charming as it once was... a truly bad message for an untalented artist like me ;-) So'm very happy to have Krys on team as I really love his artwork ;-)

10-16-2017 10:17 PM
The Creator
Quote Originally Posted by Majora
Honestly, I think not calling easy, easy, is just a lie. They ARE missing out on a lot of the game.
Sadly I don't think that this true. Different players, different tastes. And IMHO most roguelikes are doomed to stay in tiny niches because of that view. I really would llove to prove that different tastes can co-exist even for roguelikes because I firmly believe that to be true.

Quote Originally Posted by Majora
I really hope players don't get any achievments or anything for playing on this incredibly easy mode.
No, achievements are _only_ available in the true unaltered roguelike ADOM mode - any customizations to the way the rules work will lock you out from achievements. Anything else IMHO wouldn't be reasonable ;-)

10-16-2017 10:30 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by adom-admin
No, achievements are _only_ available in the true unaltered roguelike ADOM mode - any customizations to the way the rules work will lock you out from achievements. Anything else IMHO wouldn't be reasonable ;-)
Hm, that is one way to encourage playing in roguelike mode, I guess... I honestly haven't thought of that. By the way while we're on topic, is disallowing the earning of achievements when you actually make the game harder via customization (assuming the difficulty settings found in the latest public release are mostly available in the new version as well) a deliberate design decision?

10-16-2017 10:35 PM
Junior Member
Now that Grond explained the image more, I can see it is a little bit more reasonable, maybe I overreacted. Makes sense that the mist elf was the reason he survived.

I'm still not sure what best "name" for this new mode should be honestly, maybe casual mode?
IDK

Anyways, thanks for all the hard work Thomas, really nice to see all the bug fixes and content. ADOM really is the best roguelike, and one of the greatest games ever made. And yes I am super impatient =P for Steam release as I missed the fundraiser, so I just have to listen(and be jealous) to what the other bug testers tell me :(

And yeah, ADOM still has plenty of room to become even better and better. Really excited to try Rolf fungi, the new graphics, and all the other new stuff.

10-16-2017 10:49 PM
The Creator
Quote Originally Posted by Qui
Dying horribly is part of the experience.
I think that's not absolutely true. Rather it's IMHO like with wine. If the only way to savour wine were to buy bottles costing $50+ and you only could enjoy if it you manage to taste the tiniest bit of chocolate flavor (or whatever) most people probably would have given up on wine.

Luckily you can enjoy it for less and with less enthusiasm for certain fine details. But they might grow on you. I honestly believe that one of the last things a new player is going to enjoy for the learning period is dying all the time. It's a very strange notion that this could be fun initially.

IMHO the initial fun rather lies with discovering a new world each time you play (at least somewhat new), encountering new monsters and items, etc. Only after a while - when you begin to notice all the details and elaborate things you can do - you will start enjoy the many creative ways of dying ADOM can inflict upon you. But it's not something that is enjoyable to new players. Except for an occasional chuckle if you die in a particularly creative way.

10-16-2017 11:12 PM
The Creator
Changed. I think for now all arguments have been exchanged and it's time to test my decision with more test players. I have chosen to go with:
- Tutorial
- Standard mode
- Hard (roguelike) mode
Appropriate explanations about which mode is best suited for you are given (at least I hope so ;-) ). Now let's see how the next test players react.

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