Possible holy symbol / praying for uncursing issue
issueid=4206 12-30-2015 05:26 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by ixi: 51
Possible holy symbol / praying for uncursing issue
I managed to roll quire good gnomish bard character to attempt steel man challenge. After roaming through wilderness for a while either someone dropped uncursed holy symbol or I managed to pickpocket it. Time was passing, I was in search of weapon / armor of damnation hence I was equipping almost everything dropped. Shortly I equipped cursed clothes. After some time I was overloaded with various armors but no scrolls were generated still.

A solution came into my mind - my deity, Berwyn, could uncurse it for me. Just if there were enough piety... Well, just as wiki / guidebook states I used holy symbol enough time getting "You pray. You feel comfortable.". And it worked!

After roaming through wilderness for a while I equipped cursed clothes again. I decided to follow exactly the same scheme. First thing that surprised me, using holy symbol gave me a message "You pray. You feel uncomfortable." which I believe meant my piety gone below zero! How this could be possible if I never prayed since last prayer which was successful? Never mind, I ignored the warning. Just used holy symbol enough time again. And Berwyn gracefully uncursed clothes for me again. But just before I managed to press space Berwyn cursed my entire inventory!

Well, I know that tricking deity isn't good idea, isn't safe and making such expensive prayers without sacrificing anything isn't a good idea but Berwyn's behavior seems really strange:
  • Why my piety dropped below zero if "You feel uncomfortable." really indicates that?
  • Why was receiving "You feel comfortable." if Berwyn was so annoyed by me if he was at all?
  • Why Berwyn uncursed my armor if he was so annoyed by me if he was at all?
  • Why Berwyn uncursed my armor but then instantly changed his mind and cursed everything I had?
  • And finally why he destroyed nearly all my useful gear and why without any warning?

How to reproduce:
  • Generate any PC in e[x]ploration mode.
  • Enter wilderness, wish for food, water, scrolls of identify and whatever needed. Satisfy all your needs.
  • Wish for holy symbol and equip it in tool slot.
  • Dip your armor into unholy water.
  • Use holy symbol about 3000 turns.
  • Pray. Deity will uncurse your armor but won't be happy.
  • Dip your armor into unholy water.
  • Use holy symbol about 4000 turns more.
  • Pray. Deity will uncurse your armor but will curse your entire inventory including armor he just uncursed.

You'll get something like this:
Code:
You dip the uncursed clothes [+0, +0] into the potion of unholy water.
You pray. (x233)
You pray. Your 'Detect item status' skill increases by +6 to 18.
You pray. (x385)
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x314)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x573)
You pray. You feel comfortable. Your 'Detect item status' skill increases by +3 to 21.
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x425)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x446)
You pray. You feel comfortable. The light of the moon and the stars slowly seems to dissolve the clounds.
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x552)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray to Lol'th.
The cursed clothes [+0, +0] glow in a silvery light for some seconds. For some seconds the ground rumbles.
You pray to Lol'th.
A voice in your head roars: "Mortal, ye art a nuisance!" For some seconds the ground rumbles.
You pray. You feel uncomfortable. (x792)
You pray. (x268)
You pray. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. (x951)
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x48)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x999)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You start to consume the blessed stomafillia herb. You're done eating the blessed stomafillia herb. This herb rummages in your stomach. You really feel satiated now.
You dip the uncursed clothes [+0, +0] into the potion of unholy water.
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x990)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x376)
You pray. You feel comfortable. The light of the moon and the stars slowly seems to dissolve the clounds.
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x662)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray to Lol'th.
The cursed clothes [+0, +0] glow in a silvery light for some seconds. You suddenly hear a thundering voice.
"You dare curse the clothes [+0, +0] which I just gracefully uncursed for you? And you dare to pray for the cursed clothes [+0, +0] again, puny mortal? Take this for yer impudence!"
For a second you glow in a dark light.
My expectation is one of the following depending on the situation:
  • If I deserved it deity should uncurse my armor and shouldn't punish me anyhow.
  • If I didn't deserved it deity should ignore my prayer.
  • If I really deserved punishment doing such actions deity should punish me right away and shouldn't waste his sacred powers for uncursing my armor which he plans to curse anyway.
Issue Details
Issue Number 4206
Issue Type Bug
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Unconfirmed
Priority 3
Affected Version ADOM r64 (v2.0.3)
Fixed Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 0
Users unable to reproduce bug 2
Attachments 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-30-2015 05:37 AM
Ancient Member
It has always worked this way, although I agree it produces some weird behaviour (rewarding then punishing you in a single act). It runs a punish check on your piety and after the prayer is granted. Uncursing is an expensive prayer, but I think it only requires that your piety be somewhat positive to have a prayer granted, not necessarily that you can afford it, so you end up going into piety debt.

Now that I think on it though, maybe it only checks if you have enough piety above zero to afford the base cost of the prayer, and not the cost of the prayer after scaling for prayer count, and this is a bug? Just speculating.
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12-30-2015 05:38 AM
Ancient Member
Well, prayers cost piety. Uncursing in particular costs quite a lot. [and the cost is higher per heap, IIRC, pray uncursing 100moss in tool slot is not a bright idea].

So you got "uncomfortable" message because char's piety was reduced after prayer.

Second time the prayer costs even more [if you keep praying costs increase, especially for same time prayer]. This time it brings your piety down enough for cursing to happen. It is slightly illogical cause you need to have enough piety to get your God fullfill prayer, but he gets pissed by it to invoke penalties. I guess, prayer floor could be set in a way to prevent this, but with prayer scaling it might be tricky to implement.

I believe, you can just use cursed holy symbol
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12-30-2015 06:05 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
This time it brings your piety down enough for cursing to happen. It is slightly illogical cause you need to have enough piety to get your God fulfill prayer, but he gets pissed by it to invoke penalties.
Well, if this is the case and it's just designed and meant to work this way I'd rather implement one of those simple fixes:
  • Deity could invoke either only positive or only negative actions per prayer. If the first action was positive - no negative actions this time, if action was negative - no positive actions of course.
  • If deity is happy with the PC but PC can't afford that particular prayer deity could just ignore PC leaving his prayers unheard.

Any of those would perfectly work and make this prayer at least a bit more logical.
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12-30-2015 06:22 AM
Ancient Member
Look, the thing is prayer has a floor at which it can be trigerred. Repeated prayer has a multiplied cost [3x for second fast prayer I believe, so uncursing might actually end close to item destruction].
I don't think game evaluates extra cost at all, but normally it stops dropping through several piety levels. Assuming the place I've read is correct, that safety meassure triggers only if char is at +luck grantiing level of piety. [I think char can do two prayers from extreme close without worries despite whatever prayer cost is].
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12-30-2015 07:07 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Still doesn't make any sense to me. Yep, this is how it is likely implemented by this isn't logical at all.

How to reproduce:
  • Generate any PC in e[x]ploration mode.
  • Enter wilderness, wish for food, water, scrolls of identify and whatever needed. Satisfy all your needs.
  • Wish for holy symbol and equip it in tool slot.
  • Dip your armor into unholy water.
  • Use holy symbol about 3000 turns.
  • Pray. Deity will uncurse your armor but won't be happy.
  • Dip your armor into unholy water.
  • Use holy symbol about 4000 turns more.
  • Pray. Deity will uncurse your armor but will curse your entire inventory including armor he just uncursed.


You'll get something like this:
Code:
You dip the uncursed clothes [+0, +0] into the potion of unholy water.
You pray. (x233)
You pray. Your 'Detect item status' skill increases by +6 to 18.
You pray. (x385)
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x314)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x573)
You pray. You feel comfortable. Your 'Detect item status' skill increases by +3 to 21.
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x425)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x446)
You pray. You feel comfortable. The light of the moon and the stars slowly seems to dissolve the clounds.
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x552)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray to Lol'th.
The cursed clothes [+0, +0] glow in a silvery light for some seconds. For some seconds the ground rumbles.
You pray to Lol'th.
A voice in your head roars: "Mortal, ye art a nuisance!" For some seconds the ground rumbles.
You pray. You feel uncomfortable. (x792)
You pray. (x268)
You pray. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. (x951)
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x48)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x999)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You start to consume the blessed stomafillia herb. You're done eating the blessed stomafillia herb. This herb rummages in your stomach. You really feel satiated now.
You dip the uncursed clothes [+0, +0] into the potion of unholy water.
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x990)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x376)
You pray. You feel comfortable. The light of the moon and the stars slowly seems to dissolve the clounds.
You pray. You feel comfortable. (x662)
You pray. You feel comfortable. [Saving backup copy 'Holy Tes.bak'. Please stand by.]
You pray to Lol'th.
The cursed clothes [+0, +0] glow in a silvery light for some seconds. You suddenly hear a thundering voice.
"You dare curse the clothes [+0, +0] which I just gracefully uncursed for you? And you dare to pray for the cursed clothes [+0, +0] again, puny mortal? Take this for yer impudence!"
For a second you glow in a dark light.
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12-30-2015 07:14 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
I wonder who the one who unable to reproduce bug... Since it's actually reproducible in exploration mode in no time.
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12-30-2015 07:14 AM
Senior Member
Odd sequence of events, but the end result seems correct.

Very low priority, nowhere near a 3. Frankly I don't even know if it's worth fixing - you have to perform some bizarre behavior to get to this situation. Definitely a priority 10 problem.
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12-30-2015 07:18 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
I wonder who the one who unable to reproduce bug... Since it's actually reproducible in exploration mode in no time.
I don't consider it being a bug, thus I can't reproduce it, lol.
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12-30-2015 07:32 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
I don't consider it being a bug, thus I can't reproduce it, lol.
So you find actions that deity performed logical? Look like my mind is a bit blown up...

Edit: ok, lets look from an unspoiled player perspective. He made some sacrifices, got some piety and prayed when he was out of mana and wearing cursed item. Deity happily assisted. In another run he managed to solve issues with mana but still had cursed item. Deity which was equally happy assisted but suddenly cursed inventory. Not a bug?
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12-30-2015 07:51 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
So you find actions that deity performed logical? Look like my mind is a bit blown up...

Edit: ok, lets look from an unspoiled player perspective. He made some sacrifices, got some piety and prayed when he was out of mana and wearing cursed item. Deity happily assisted. In another run he managed to solve issues with mana but still had cursed item. Deity which was equally happy assisted but suddenly cursed inventory. Not a bug?
Let's make an example -- you stroll in a shop, pick stuff and pay for it. After you leave shop their realise your actual debt is through the roof and send security after you. Well, have you been punished for shopping or for being in debt?
If i crunched numbers right, it is next to impossible to get deity penalty on the first uncursing prayer. Cursing happens because of added costs for repeated prayers. It teaches a new player a good lesson that a deity is not a gift machine.
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12-30-2015 08:50 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
Let's make an example -- you stroll in a shop, pick stuff and pay for it. After you leave shop their realise your actual debt is through the roof and send security after you. Well, have you been punished for shopping or for being in debt?
I'd describe it this way: you go to a shop wanna buy a present to you friend. You are not sure which one and don't know the cost. You have a credit card but don't know the balance exactly. Shopkeeper suggest you a thing to buy, you pay with you credit card and bank accepts the payment! But right after that security guards are putting shackles on you and taking you into the prison because there were actually no enough money at your credit card to pay!
Actually when I'm shopping in real life I'm neither checking prices nor checking balance, I'm usually pretty sure I have enough money. And I know for sure - if I won't have enough money to pay - I won't be able pay at all and leave the shop with the thing I planned to buy. Hence I'm sure that no one would punish me for that.

Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
If i crunched numbers right, it is next to impossible to get deity penalty on the first uncursing prayer. Cursing happens because of added costs for repeated prayers. It teaches a new player a good lesson that a deity is not a gift machine.
It overteaches. It tells that deity is generally unpredictable and prayers is generally unsafe and better to avoid unless you scummed for piety really a lot...
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12-30-2015 09:08 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
But right after that security guards are putting shackles on you and taking you into the prison because there were actually no enough money at your credit card to pay!
nah, a bank just puts a heavy interest rate on your debt [defining thing about credit cards is that you can spend more money than you have on your account, otherwise it is a debit card]. Debt is real shackles in modern society:) in the prison you wouldn't work for their corporate goals...
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12-30-2015 09:08 AM
Senior Member
I guess if something is bugged it is the possibility to uncurse your item by praying and get your inventory cursed again by asking too much. Otherwise it seems normal behaviour to me as well. Uncursing costs a ton of piety and just using Holy Symbol to get piety back then repeated prayer costs even more and you get punished. I admit it's a bit weird to be rewarded and then punished and imo it should be changed. This really doesn't happen in course of normal gameplay.

For me it's also priority 7-10 bug. I guess if you keep using prayer for the challenge it might be higher priority for you.
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12-30-2015 10:03 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
nah, a bank just puts a heavy interest rate on your debt [defining thing about credit cards is that you can spend more money than you have on your account, otherwise it is a debit card]. Debt is real shackles in modern society:) in the prison you wouldn't work for their corporate goals...
Only if you don't hit overdraft limit... My card doesn't have overdraft at all. If no money - I have no ability to pay. That's it.
But even if bank would put heavy interest rate on me I won't be arrested for not paying that debt instantly, otherwise why would anyone give it to me?
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