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Rebalance Heir

01-27-2013 06:38 PM

shockeroo

Senior Member

Number of reported issues by shockeroo: 50

Rebalance Heir

Right now I never take heir on characters other than Bards or Assassins. A lot of race/class combinations don't have the option of taking heir without a starsign that gives +1 talent, and usually most can't take it even then. Even amongst those that can, it's rarely worth the 3 talents.

I'd like to see the requirement being put back down to only 1 prerequisite talent, and any further balancing done from there - especially now 7LB have been nerfed and a lot of early game scumming opportunities have been taken out.

Issue Details

Issue Number 1864

Issue Type Feature

Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)

Category Windows 8

Status Suggested

Priority 10 - Lowest

Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 11

Implemented Version (none)

Milestone (none)

Votes for this feature 6

Votes against this feature 7

Attachments 0

Assigned Users (none)

Tags (none)

01-27-2013 08:48 PM

Citronvand Citronvand is offline

Junior Member

Agreed. 3 talents is a lot for it. Maybe beef them up or lower the amount of required talents. I mean you can take Treasure hunter for 3 talents :)

01-27-2013 09:07 PM

Grey

Ancient Member

I like the high requirement for it - means it actually requires choice and sacrifice. If you're only using it on 2 classes then maybe you're underestimating many of the gifts.

01-27-2013 09:10 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

The heir gifts have already been beefed up. Try a Mist Elf Necromancer.

01-27-2013 09:35 PM

_Ln_

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Grey

I like the high requirement for it - means it actually requires choice and sacrifice. If you're only using it on 2 classes then maybe you're underestimating many of the gifts.

Soo, which class besides bard, assassin, thief and possibly archer is reasonable for Heir? Even after buffs.
I've voted "no" on this one, because all bards take 7lb and we don't want to make all other classes always pick Heir.

I'm tempted to make an RFE to give all bards 7lb as starting equipment, only uncursed because, again, what was last time any ADoM player picked a race for a bard and didn't roll-scum for 3 talents?

01-27-2013 09:41 PM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Soo, which class besides bard, assassin, thief and possibly archer is reasonable for Heir?

Fighters get 4 points of indestructible pv. Druids get an armor of life now.

01-27-2013 09:42 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

Healers get some pretty nice elven chain mail. Barbarian heir gift is hard to roll, but pretty good too.

01-27-2013 10:33 PM

Dogbreath

Senior Member

Originally Posted by grobblewobble

Fighters get 4 points of indestructible pv. Druids get an armor of life now.

I've gotten up to 8 (!) before. It's really, really nice - especially if you're playing a weaker race.

01-27-2013 10:36 PM

shockeroo

Senior Member

Hm, tricky. I didn't realise some of the gifts have been improved. I still think something needs to change; my problem is that there is too often no decision whether or not to take heir, you just can't.

It's almost impossible for many race/class combinations. Any candle or falcon gnome or halfling can have heir, but other combinations usually can't for a lot of classes.

01-28-2013 12:24 AM

Grey

Ancient Member

Wizard wand of fire is more useful early game than any other set of 3 talents for a wizard, excepting Treasure Hunter of course. Elementalist ring is very nice - 2 PV and several resistances for free. Archer gift is handy for certain races. Too often people look at heir gifts and only think of their long term value.

01-28-2013 07:37 AM

_Ln_

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Grey

Too often people look at heir gifts and only think of their long term value.

That is how people should look at heir gifts, no? Wasting a special item to make you survive till midgame when you'll forget about your heir gift completely?

Ok, I agree on healer (didn't even know about that one), because it can last throughout the whole game, but anything else - still no. Fighters already start with good equipment, surely you can survive early game with that.

01-28-2013 09:30 AM

plllizzz9

Senior Member

I'm just gonna say the rapier the duelist gets should be mithril, if not admantium - it's really easy to lose/corrode compared to pretty much every other Heir weapon

01-28-2013 10:59 AM

Grey

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by _Ln_

That is how people should look at heir gifts, no? Wasting a special item to make you survive till midgame when you'll forget about your heir gift completely?

Most talents are not very good, providing minor benefits here or there. If the heir gifts were all end-game items then they'd be ludicrously overpowered compared with the other talents. Instead they're optional items that may prove useful, in particular with early game survivability. I'd much rather that than no-brainer must-have items.

01-28-2013 01:05 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

If your heir gift makes you survive to midgame, that makes it a pretty good item, IMHO. Most of my characters die in the early game. If I can make it to Dwarftown, I have a decent enough chance of winning.

01-28-2013 08:44 PM

Qui

Senior Member

Heir most likely suffers because players want to take Alert at character creation in order to get Treasure Hunter. 4 talents would be needed to get both, and it's very rare to get 4.

02-03-2013 05:36 PM

shockeroo

Senior Member

Originally Posted by Qui

Heir most likely suffers because players want to take Alert at character creation in order to get Treasure Hunter. 4 talents would be needed to get both, and it's very rare to get 4.

Untrue. If you are NOT one of the following, then it's desperately hard to even get 3 talents:

Gnome or Hurthling
Bard, Merchant or Farmer
A race/class combination with 18+ starting mana

Everyone else only has the option of taking heir if they are Falcon or Candle AND roll a 1/7.

02-03-2013 06:13 PM

Spellweaver Spellweaver is offline

Senior Member

Originally Posted by shockeroo

1/7 is rare, you know.

02-04-2013 12:38 PM

paivi

Member

I don't see the problem here. IMO talents are not meant to be balanced for all classes - that would be impossible. Some are useless for melee types, some do nothing for spellcasters, some you can't even get if your stats are crap or you don't have enough starting talents. So what, life and ADOM aren't fair and talents are not exactly a huge deal for survival anyway.

I never take Heir except for bards, and I consider Heir about the only reason to play bards. Most other classes have their own attractions.

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