Chaos Knight - Removes too much content without adding enough to be fun (spoilers)
issueid=1883 01-29-2013 11:42 AM
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by Citronvand: 6
Chaos Knight - Removes too much content without adding enough to be fun (spoilers)
Make Chaos Knight have roughly the same amount of content as the other classes

I initially hoped for a fun and unique experience when I started my Chaos Knight, especially since I just finished the game with a L+ character, but all I got was punishment and "can't do that" without anything really new. I think the Chaos Knight removes too much content out of the game without adding enough to make the class fun.

Want to do most quests in ADOM such as Dwarftown and Terinyo but also others for example the Weird Tome? Can't do that, you need to be neutral for that. There is also quests you cannot do even when neutral such as the Sheriff quests.
Want to get the Healing skill? Can't do that, you need to be neutral for that. Yes, even to kill Jharod.
Want to get food from the ratling traders? Can't do that, you need to be neutral.
Want to be neutral? Can't do that, you need fire resistance and a LOT of tedious sacrifices.
Want to use your class powers? Can't do that, you need to be chaotic for that.
Want to train your attributes by spending gold? (Garth) Can't do that, AT ALL.

I think it is also important to note that you're not really playing a Chaos Knight if you're not chaotic: First of all you're not evil which is kind of the point with the class, secondly you lose all your class powers which is like playing no class at all.
It is also common to keep re-rolling until you don't get horrible corruptions at the start: such as unholy aura, stiff muscles and Teleportation. Which is just another thing to add to the Not-fun-pile.

It's fine to make exclusive content for certain classes and races but everyone should have roughly the same amount of content. It doesn't need to be the same content, just the same amount of content, roughly. The game already has this to some extent, you can choose to help the sheriff or to kill him. You can choose to help the healer or to kill him. That's good, it makes repeating playthroughs different and fun.

You might say that Chaos Knights are suppose to be a hard class to play. Maybe. I don't have a problem with challenging races/classes but I MUCH rather play as a hurthling merchant than a chaos knight if I want a challenge since I can fully embrace the merchant class without missing half the game. I was going for Ultra Chaos God Ending with my Chaos Knight, everything was going fine, first kill farmer, pre-crown done, dwarf-shop sells a AoLS. Going pretty good, except one thing. It was not fun. So I'm not going to continue. I rather play my Ratling Fencer which I just love, THAT class is a unique and fun experience. No shields, only one-handed weapon, Massive focus on weapon skills but perhaps the most important: Still the same amount of content.



So there is a lot of solutions for this: You could have alternative quests and NPCs which let's you embrace the Chaos Knight class but still makes you feel like you didn't miss half the game. You can lessen the severe penalties for alignment shifts. You can let the Chaos Knight talk to more people. I don't know the best solution, I'd think I prefer alternative quests/NPCs, but I do know that the Chaos Knight needs roughly the same amount of content as the other classes. If this is the same old content or new content, I do not know, either is fine by me.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1883
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 7
Status Suggested
Priority 2
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 10
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 11
Votes against this feature 4
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




01-29-2013 11:47 AM
Ancient Member
Play merchants if you want to then. I'm having fun with Chaos Knights :) They're individual compared with many other classes, and the restrictions breed a lot of inventive play. Really enjoyable to play! And a very different sort of challenge to just playing a weak class like a merchant.

Besides, the quests in ADOM aren't that big a deal. The real content is dungeon exploring, and they enjoy that just as much as anyone else.

01-29-2013 11:56 AM
Junior Member
I obviously disagree Grey. It is partially because of the quests and story I like ADOM more than other roguelikes.

01-29-2013 12:11 PM
Ancient Member
I more or less agree with the OP. At the beginning it was very fun to play CKs due to figuring out all the then unknown details, but now that I know how they go, they're still interesting but a bit boring early on. I don't think they need to have the same overall amount of content as the other classes, but it would be nice if they had some accessible quests especially in the early game and early midgame. In the current state it feels like they don't have much to do apart from levelling to prepare for the temples and lower CoC, which means dungeoneering for the sake of it, and feels a bit grindy. Later on they can go to the Rift, Maze, etc., but at the beginning there is not much motivation to do stuff.

If the RFE to allow them to get Healing the chaotic way is implemented, that will help, but I think they'd still need a bit more oomph.

01-29-2013 12:15 PM
Senior Member
Besides, the quests in ADOM aren't that big a deal. The real content is dungeon exploring
Yeah, and losing the opportunity to visit few nice additional dungeons unless playing not as intended [Druid Dungeon, Puppy Cave, Village Dungeon, Dwarf Graveyard, Scincilating Cave too?] - matters mostly in the early/mid game [with the exception of SC], but that's when I get 'hooked' on a character and get the motivation to continue. But now the only motivation to continue a Chaos Knight is getting a patch of speensweed available and using most time to farm it up to 150-200 unless you started with Candle/vigor corruption - otherwise the game is about getting slowly cut up to death, having been cut from healing sources available to basically any other character. The class powers are strong and corruptions/starting equipment seem like they offer a good start, but then it sorta... grinds to a halt, offering CoC dive as the only option

01-29-2013 12:57 PM
Ancient Member
I still think that they should be able to kill Jharod. Other than that, I think CKs are quite fine as it is. Though, playing without Healing is quite interesting (esp. if you get decay corruption to start with!)

01-29-2013 01:25 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
I still think that they should be able to kill Jharod. Other than that, I think CKs are quite fine as it is. Though, playing without Healing is quite interesting (esp. if you get decay corruption to start with!)
I also think they are fine as they are from a power perspective. It's just that they lack things to do early-game and the first half of mid-game. They lose so many fun locations to explore in the beginning of the game. What if there was a alternative quest for saving the puppy for the little girl. For example in Lawenilothehl there could be a old hag with a chaos cat. The chaos cat meows: "FeeD mE WiTh PupPiES". Which let's you discover PuppyCave on the world map and find the puppy. If you bring the puppy alive to the cat, the cat eats the puppy and likes you more and you can then proceed to feed the cat from time to time with let's say rat corpses. Once the chaos cat likes you enough you can take it with you as a companion which may affect your encounter with Cat Lord (good, bad, who knows? :) ). Something like that so you at least have something to do as a CK in the beginning and it could be a nice alternative companion to Hawkslayer for chaotic characters.

01-29-2013 02:04 PM
Ancient Member
Chaotic cat idea is cool, I'm all for that :)

One thing about Chaos Knights early game is that they're pretty perfect for a UD dive, which is generally a fun way to start the game.

01-29-2013 02:11 PM
Senior Member
I generally start -all- my games with UD dives [as a sort of 'sink or swim' method] so that's not really conclusive for my playing around with CK :)

01-29-2013 02:15 PM
Ancient Member
I also always do UD dives, but I still think there is a period (after the UD dive but before you have levelled up enough to do ToEF/deep CoC/Rift/Maze/etc) where there's not much to do apart from generic dungeoneering.

01-29-2013 04:28 PM
Senior Member
This is the way chaos knights are supposed to be: a really different gameplay experience. I see no problem with that. There will be five new quests by the time we get to the final iteration of 1.2.0 - maybe some of them will be more chaotic in nature and chaos knights will be able to take on the job. In the meantime I don't think anything needs to be changed.

01-29-2013 04:44 PM
Senior Member
I agree with that as long as 'different' isn't 'boring' or 'discouraging'. CK kinda stays on the edge at the moment - it's a really fun class at higher levels

01-29-2013 11:17 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by aerol
This is the way chaos knights are supposed to be: a really different gameplay experience.
were they supposed to be less interesting and more tedious? If yes, I rest my case.

Seriously, I can accept inability to do some quests, but some other "CK only" quests should be added instead. The "ChAoS path" can and should be different, yes, but right now it's different mostly because of things CK CAN'T do.

01-30-2013 06:46 AM
Senior Member
I agree that they should be able to kill Jharod, and hope they get some more content when the new quests are added. But I also agree with Grey that right now, one of the high points of the class is being forced to find non-standard solutions to your problems. Reviewing the NPC interactions wouldn't hurt, however. Ratling traders should sell food to you, for example, and does the Ancient Karmic Wyrm really care who kills his archenemy? If the player dies or the dragon dies, either way he wins. :-)

If the Assassin's guild becomes joinable, that might give CKs something interesting to do midgame.

01-30-2013 09:32 AM
Junior Member
I think that training for gold should be available as well. Right now you cannot do it even if you change alignment. It doesn't have to be Garth that trains you but it is a good feature and a good money sink in the game. Especially now when herbs got nerfed (and corpses as well?). For instance I have 20 Strength with a max potential of 28 I believe. I have no idea how to increase it to it's max potential. I have tried eating a lot of ogres e.t.c. but none of them have increased my strength. I have athletics to 100 but haven't seen a increase in strength so far. Being burdened can only increase it to 18 so that's not a option.

01-30-2013 02:10 PM
Ancient Member
Ogres can only increase st to 19; being strained! will train it to 18 and not beyond. I've never trained St with Garth and I've never had a problem.

01-30-2013 02:52 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta
Ogres can only increase st to 19; being strained! will train it to 18 and not beyond. I've never trained St with Garth and I've never had a problem.
So, how DO you increase your strength to your max potential without training with Garth and without using potions?

01-30-2013 02:57 PM
Ancient Member
Um, you just don't?

In most of my games I don't use Garth at all, and it's not such a big deal. 20 or 21 strength or so from Strained! and the odd corpse/PoGA is more than enough. You can wear items like girdles of strength if you really want more.

01-30-2013 02:58 PM
Ancient Member
You don't. 20 St is plenty to take you through the entire game.

01-30-2013 03:11 PM
Ancient Member
Giant corpses (esp. stronger giants: fire, frost, etc.) can raise St above 20. Corruptions, especially apish, can push you quite a bit higher. There's also potions, level ups. Chaos knights also receive a 1dX bonus to St, Dx, and To at level 25 (X being number of corruptions...)

01-30-2013 03:22 PM
Junior Member
I'd say that's a flaw then. It makes the whole "Max Potential" system useless in this case since practically I'm already at my max potential. It doesn't matter if I need it or not to finish the game, I don't need 7LB to finish the game either but I sure love to have them. What happened to the ability to naturally train your attributes to your max potential and then be forced to use magical means to train it even further?

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