Allow teleportation on Cat Lord's level after he has been dealt with.
issueid=4639 12-07-2016 03:17 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Blasphemous: 110
Allow teleportation on Cat Lord's level after he has been dealt with.

I'd like to see cat lord's level treated in much the same way that Dfg works right now.
In dfg, until you kill Kherab, teleportation is unreliable, even with control.
After the dwarf is killed, it returns to normal.
Cat Lord level could behave in similar way - as long as Cat Lord is present, teleportation is forbidden.
Once killed or once he gives the PC his ring and disappears, teleportation should be permitted again.
This is mostly for convenience, when you're passing through the area several times and the route between staircases is particularly convoluted.
Issue Details
Issue Number 4639
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 9
Suggested Version ADOM 2.3.0 (r73)
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 4
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-07-2016 06:28 PM
Junior Member
Definitely yes.

12-09-2016 07:31 PM
Ancient Member
I'm less sure about that.

They feel like different cases to me:
1) Darkforge has teleport unlike any other area - it's allowed but forced unreliable. (The closest is the casino shop)
2) Kherab is extremely optional to destroy. Plenty of people go into the (optional) Darkforge and don't interact with him. He's not even hostile.
3) The Cat Lord's level is _itself_ distinct ("This level seems to be removed from the rest of the world"). Doesn't feel like the Cat lord imposing the burden, but the level.

Also, teleportation is already really good in the CoC, I don't know that we need another reason to make teleportation easier.

That said, it doesn't seem like a big deal, so while I think I'm opposed to it, I'm not opposed to it strongly enough to vote.

12-09-2016 08:32 PM
Ancient Member
In that case, maybe the teleportation removal isn't tied to the level, but to the cat lord itself. So if you pull the cat lord from D:35 to D:34, then D:34 becomes a no-teleport area.

12-11-2016 04:05 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Harwin
I'm less sure about that.

They feel like different cases to me:
1) Darkforge has teleport unlike any other area - it's allowed but forced unreliable. (The closest is the casino shop)
2) Kherab is extremely optional to destroy. Plenty of people go into the (optional) Darkforge and don't interact with him. He's not even hostile.
3) The Cat Lord's level is _itself_ distinct ("This level seems to be removed from the rest of the world"). Doesn't feel like the Cat lord imposing the burden, but the level.

Also, teleportation is already really good in the CoC, I don't know that we need another reason to make teleportation easier.

That said, it doesn't seem like a big deal, so while I think I'm opposed to it, I'm not opposed to it strongly enough to vote.
It's just one level. Doesn't make it any easier, especially that it only takes place after the 'boss' has been dealt with. What's the big deal?
Cat lord is no less optional than Kherab.
You can kill him or ignore him just the same.

Seriously, it's such a small thing, I did not think people would really be bothered.
There seems to be an exaggerated hate for teleportation as a game-breaking element, but in this particular case - it doesn't break ANYTHING.
It's just a convenience feature, what's wrong about that?

12-11-2016 05:37 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
Seriously, it's such a small thing, I did not think people would really be bothered.
There seems to be an exaggerated hate for teleportation as a game-breaking element, but in this particular case - it doesn't break ANYTHING.
It's just a convenience feature, what's wrong about that?
I would guess there is opposition precisely because it's such a small thing. The proposal trades flavor (see Harwin's third point) for only a small amount of convenience. As Jellyslayer noted, you can sidestep this by tying the no-teleport condition to the cat lord himself (and presumably coming up with a new message), but this isn't what you proposed.

12-11-2016 07:42 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
Cat lord is no less optional than Kherab.
I'd say he's considerably less optional than Kherab. To begin with Darkforge is an area the character never has to even enter if he doesn't want to, while the Cat Lord's level absolutely MUST be traversed at least once to close the gate. Also, Kherab is not hostile, while if you've killed any cats, the Cat Lord spawns hostile, and since his level is teleport proof he's not necessarily that easy to avoid. Additionally, if you do avoid him and forget he's there when traversing the level again, he can easily sneak up on and kill even a very powerful character.

That said, I think this is a reasonable RFE

12-12-2016 09:44 AM
Ancient Member
Tying "no-tele" feature with cat lord is fine for me.

As for the cat lord - wands of monster detection and digging are common and allow to easily bypass the kitty even if you've killed a thousand cats.
Of course, there's the odd chance he gets spawned in either staircase room but that's RNG for you and it can hit you with its random hammer on any level.

The flavor you mentioned is a generic message that could fit any number of levels in adom.
The message just happens to occur on the cat lord level, but in my opinion, it's in no way thematically tied to teleportation.
Might as well have been a level that only generates cats or a level where natural regeneration is disabled, or anything else.
I disagree with Harwin's third point. I think cat lord is precisely what makes the level special and whatever unique features it has, should revert to regular upon cat lord dying or disappearing.

12-12-2016 04:47 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
The flavor you mentioned is a generic message that could fit any number of levels in adom.
The message just happens to occur on the cat lord level, but in my opinion, it's in no way thematically tied to teleportation.
Might as well have been a level that only generates cats or a level where natural regeneration is disabled, or anything else.
I disagree with Harwin's third point. I think cat lord is precisely what makes the level special and whatever unique features it has, should revert to regular upon cat lord dying or disappearing.
I disagree. Teleportation (or ethereal bridge) presumably requires temporarily moving through some other dimension (maybe the ethereal plane) to reach a distant destination. If the level is separated from the rest of the world, it's plausible that it would also be cut off from whatever dimension is used for teleportation. I'm sure you can construe it to mean something else, but it meaning no teleportation makes more sense than a lot of things (e.g. no natural regeneration).

Going more speculative - I kinda like the idea that all adventurers in Ancardia have a chance to stumble into the cat lord's domain, as opposed to him just hanging out on some random CoC level. Maybe the level should have lots of cats too. >:D

Anyway, if no-teleport is tied to the cat lord's current location, then there would need to be a message for whatever level he is on, not just on the level he was generated on.

12-12-2016 06:35 PM
Junior Member
The message of the level being removed from the rest of the world far precedes the non-teleporting, so it's most certainly not intended as a teleportation reference.

12-13-2016 09:34 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Grond
I disagree. Teleportation (or ethereal bridge) presumably requires temporarily moving through some other dimension (maybe the ethereal plane) to reach a distant destination. If the level is separated from the rest of the world, it's plausible that it would also be cut off from whatever dimension is used for teleportation. I'm sure you can construe it to mean something else, but it meaning no teleportation makes more sense than a lot of things (e.g. no natural regeneration).

Going more speculative - I kinda like the idea that all adventurers in Ancardia have a chance to stumble into the cat lord's domain, as opposed to him just hanging out on some random CoC level. Maybe the level should have lots of cats too. >:D

Anyway, if no-teleport is tied to the cat lord's current location, then there would need to be a message for whatever level he is on, not just on the level he was generated on.
You're making an assumption based on non-existent or very scant evidence.
I, for one, think that teleportation happens in the same dimension as everything else.
Additionally, the mechanism must be quite simple too, considering that traps can teleport you without the need to be supplied by whatever magical power they use for that, indefinitely.
Some monsters can use teleportation that otherwise have no magic affinity whatsoever.
Of course magic can explain everything but if everything is magical, then nothing is magical, don't we agree?
There need to be aspects of this fictional world that are definitively non-magical, to give meaning to those that are.
That said, I believe teleportation could well be the least magic-related spell in the game.

Ethereal bridge (related to ethereal plane you mentioned, I guess) is a clerical name which possibly reflects the clerical outlook on spells, while for the arcane classes it's simply teleportation.
Furthermore, the level's adherence to all other rules governing the world of Ancardia or even more specifically Drakalor Chain, is ample evidence that it is indeed part of that world.
The same monsters can be generated, the dungeon has the same layout generation principles, standard items drop there, it is connected at two points with other, similar dungeon levels, rune trident can be delivered by the water elemental here, etc.
The precise message involves seems, which doesn't indicate certainty, just subjective feeling.
I might even argue that it's the result of Kitty marking his territory and the PC inhaling whatever vapors spread through the air as a result.
I sure felt that way once, when I got back from work only to discover my own cat took a major leak in the hall. Out of this world, I tell you.
Anyway, that's just me, so let's not head in that direction.

I believe that the no-teleportation rule is not within the nature of the level; rather it is due to the presence of Cat Lord and that is the intuitive feeling the player character experiences.

12-19-2016 08:39 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Honestly, don't see much point in most of the arguments here. I believe that the reason no-teleportation rule is balance. Put here only to defeat the most game-breaking feature use against boss Cat Lord. And all the outside-world stuff is just a justification. Following this logic it does make sense to switch teleportation off once Cat Lord is defeated.

Not voting though, the effect is so minor and I hate controlled teleportation too much. Think it just doesn't worth Creator's attention...

12-19-2016 09:37 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
Think it just doesn't worth Creator's attention...
I believe that's not for you to decide.
I've seen him implement more insignificant RFEs with enthusiasm and ignore much more radical ones without comment.
If Creator's attention is of such importance to you then refusing to vote either way is the worst you can do.

If you're for then upvote it, it's that simple, then leave it to the executive power to further ponder or not.
If you're against, then downvote it and make things simpler for everybody, by making the picture clear.

12-19-2016 11:03 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I believe that's not for you to decide.
I've seen him implement more insignificant RFEs with enthusiasm and ignore much more radical ones without comment.
If Creator's attention is of such importance to you then refusing to vote either way is the worst you can do.

If you're for then upvote it, it's that simple, then leave it to the executive power to further ponder or not.
If you're against, then downvote it and make things simpler for everybody, by making the picture clear.
Sorry, not agree on your point. Of course it's always up to TB what to implement. What makes him to decide what to implement, what to leave and what to reject? It must be complexity, severity, personal preferences and the view of the commnity. As part of the community I think there a lot more things to invest time into. Don't see anything wrong with my point. Why should we suggest what and how to implement and at the same time we can't suggest when?

12-19-2016 03:39 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
Sorry, not agree on your point. Of course it's always up to TB what to implement. What makes him to decide what to implement, what to leave and what to reject? It must be complexity, severity, personal preferences and the view of the commnity. As part of the community I think there a lot more things to invest time into. Don't see anything wrong with my point. Why should we suggest what and how to implement and at the same time we can't suggest when?
My take on this is that TB's going to look at whatever he wants regardless of the vote. Not casting a vote accomplishes nothing, while voting at least lets other community members know how (un)popular a topic is. We are in no way going to have any true influence on tb by saying what we feel by voting.

12-19-2016 03:51 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Well, it's all just assumptions, you know. Moreover, everyone's free to say he wants something by voting yes, to say he doesn't want something by saying no, or to say that RFE isn't that important for you by not voting, right? This already the case by the way - some RFEs got about one hundred votes while some of them stay unnoticed by the most players.

12-20-2016 09:30 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blank4u47
My take on this is that TB's going to look at whatever he wants regardless of the vote. Not casting a vote accomplishes nothing, while voting at least lets other community members know how (un)popular a topic is. We are in no way going to have any true influence on tb by saying what we feel by voting.
This.
TB has shown multiple times that if he really likes an RFE, votes for or against don't much matter.
But at least from the perspective of the one suggesting an RFE, it's nice to know where the community is standing so casting a vote one way or another is the best way to do that.
Overwhelming for or against seem to also have some impact on the implementation of RFEs.

The only time I do not vote yes or no on an RFE is when clarification or change is needed.
I usually post this request and if it's corrected, I vote for, if it's not, I vote against.

There is no reasonable situation where I will not vote on something, unless I have somehow skipped/overlooked the RFE.
Even if I don't really need the change that an RFE introduces, I vote for, because some people will benefit from it, while I'm indifferent.
No harm done to me so why wouldn't I support it?

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