Originally Posted by
ixi
I read your suggestion twice more or less attentively.
So the first and your main suggestion is to completely get rid of "female" prefix keeping all other grammar (he / she) as is. I never thought about such a simple thing before and see it as a first very necessary step on the way forward.
Yep, exactly. Absolutely no reason not to - it even streamlines the game.
I concurrently suggested that more monsters get labelled 'female' via their pronouns (grammatical description) at the same time since currently 'female' variant monsters are fairly rare - only keeping to those whose names allowed the prefix. It'd be nice to see them spread throughout the game world. I believe both of these changes are first prerequisite (or else existing gender differences won't be noticeable any more).
Originally Posted by
ixi
The second suggestion is to standardise name so that they're neutral or specific for both male and female genders (swordsman/swordswoman/swordfighter). I do like swordsman / swordswoman more since it adds more detail but "You hit swordsman with full force but didn't manage to harm her." (taking into account 1st point is implemented and there is no "female" prefix) would sound a bit more awkward than "You hit swordfighter with full force but didn't manage to harm her."
..E.g. female air demon could become air demoness. I'm not sure whether it's correct to say "fightress" from the English grammar point but it would look nicer on the background than "female fighter".
Completely agree that swordswoman is better for the female swordsman, because swordfighter is too close to fighter.
The third suggestion 'swordfighter' is designed either to replace BOTH names to avoid name variation, or else to take into account the potential inclusion of a third gender option using the pronoun 'they', which would be a nice addition to the game if desired, and which may be implementable if gender is set to randomise (harder if effectively two creatures will need creating to enable the gender variation). It's also useful if there's no way to link name randomisation with pronouns and graphics (unlikely, but I'm not the Creator and I haven't read the code).
MOST of the names are already gender-neutral, because Thomas is awesome. Women can be fighters. Demons can presumably be female. It's just weird to have a female "swordsman".
I'd be fine reading a sentence like "
You hit the fighter with full force but didn't manage to harm her." Replace fighter with swordsman or lizardman, though, and there's suddenly a problem.
Wizard is a bit of a strange case but it could be left as-is (no reason it couldn't be a gender-neutral term in Ancardia), changed to 'enchantress' to match the background (your mother was an enchantress, your father was a humble shepherd on her land) and so on. Sage, for example, is fine either way.
Originally Posted by
ixi
The third suggestion is to add more female monster types: fire giant queens, princesses, ghost ladies, lich empress, maybe completely new amazon warriors.
Finally add more female non-hostile monsters - notably shopkeepers (or maybe tradeswomen?).
These would both be really great. While the main suggestion is priority 3 (maybe higher), though, these are closer to priority 5 - but they also interlink with the other issues which is why they share an RFE.
For example, if we're going to rebalance gender to be randomly selectable by species but still want all berserkers male for wedding purposes (if we do), then a female equivalent would be a good idea.
Regarding the other monster types - I was actually suggesting that the names varied along with the pronouns, by gender - if this is possible (and it should be according to named monsters already existing) then there's no reason that a Fire Giant King which rolled as female via the RNG shouldn't have the monster name altered to "Fire Giant Queen".
This could even be taken a step further to Fire Giant Monarch in the kills list if desirable.
One note - Princess would be good to see (or Lady, or equivalent) in replacement for some of the classes that use Prince - but for parity we could add Dark Elven
Princes (assuming canon doesn't conflict, matriarchy and all). Or simply keep one of each type single-gendered. I'm all for fairness. :)
Originally Posted by
ixi
I support all the changes and see it as top-priority. ...a must-implement change for impression
You are awesome, and thanks for that. I was really disappointed to see someone list it as 'Priority 11' and frankly I see this as high priority now that we're in public release.
Originally Posted by
anon123
I'd get rid of the "male/female orc" label and simply let combat messages reveal gender. 'l'ooking at them already does so - the game says "he/she does not care about you/is not injured/looks somewhat experienced", and many female monsters have alternate descriptions too. I agree with the rest of the changes mentioned in the first post.
Great! But yes, I've come to totally agree with this now - my second suggestion was far better. It streamlines the game more and takes the focus away from gender completely while still letting it be a part of the game's richness (especially so, if variation becomes more widespread). Keeping the alternate descriptions for female and male versions of monsters is a great idea, too - especially if the gender and thus description randomises in the monster memory when you type a monster name in.
My
ideal implementation of this would be to see all applicable monster types possessing a RNG'd gender at generation which then affects their pronouns, description, 'l'ook and attack messages, name (where gendered), graphics (if doable), and monster memory, when encountered -- and to have a monster memory that flashes one up at random (or the appropriate gender by name for Kings/Queens etc).
Originally Posted by
auricbond
I always find it an amusing if probably non-intentional allusion to Monkey Island, which had a female 'swordmaster of melee island'. The thing is those were english developers and I'm pretty sure even back in 1990 when the game was made it sounded weird to call a female a 'master'. Then again, some female authority figures in the army prefer 'sir' rather than 'ma'am' when addressing them, so who knows.
Note that she's not the "
Female Swordmaster of Melee Island"...
This is a cute idea, but in Monkey Island it's a deliberate reference, and I don't think it's strong enough to carry a whole game of gendered writing on its own. Nowadays a 'swordmaster' can be of any gender so the reference is no longer current. ADOM may have been gamma'd in the mid nineties but it's being released in 2015.
That said, I'm already giving this a nod by suggesting that knights, fighters and lords should be available to both genders anyway.
Originally Posted by
Harwin
I'm not sure we need to add genders for animals. For one thing, for many animals I can't tell the difference between them without looking very carefully - which I'm unlikely to do in combat.
That said, if we're not going to do genders for animals, they should definitely be it/they rather than he.
The reason I used the terms "applicable" and "humanoid" were because some creatures have no gender - notably inanimate magical objects, and animals. Animals should remain as it or they IMO.
But I love ixi's suggestions for alternate versions of certain creatures that already have a gendered name, and can't see any reason not to hunt wild sow in the wildnerness. I'd be alright with female Boars, though - Wild Boar is a species title as well as a male signifier. Either way.
Originally Posted by
sweetnothing
"Female orc" was already quite ridiculous to read, with "male orc" it is more so. I think that the reference to gender should be moved to [M]ore section of the moster description.
Agreed completely. And you're right, it is ridiculous! ;D
I wrote the original RFE in a short time and comments since have significantly swayed me toward this option. I've edited the original text to show this.
My line of thinking was that if it wasn't possible to replace 'female' as a component with solely monster description, memory and 'l'ook messages (all of which currently do show he/she/it as appliable anyway) then at least adding 'male' would square things up.
I'd rather both were removed, however. Streamline everything in the user interface!
It also gives us an unprecedented opportunity to submit even more flavourful monster descriptions to vary male/female, if the dev team have that much patience. :)