Quest to kill Jharod the Healer
issueid=1388 12-07-2012 04:59 AM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by Dogbreath: 74
Quest to kill Jharod the Healer
Make the quest from Hotzenplotz to kill Jharod available without talking to village elder.

Playing a Chaos Knight, I noticed it's impossible to generate either the VD or the DD due to neither the village elder nor the druid wanting to talk to you. Which is fine (it makes sense), but you can't generate the quest to kill Jharod without talking to Rynt. My suggested improvement would be to make the quest available from Hotzenplotz *without* getting the quest from Rynt, but keep it mutually exclusive from the Druid's quest. I.e, if you get the quest from Hotzenplotz, then the druid will *never* give you the black druid quest (even if you convert to another alignment), and if you get the druid quest first, Hotzenplotz will never give you the quest to kill the healer.

You could make it so, say, Jharod is always generated hostile towards chaotically aligned Chaos Knights, so there's no means of rescuing the Carpenter.

This is a balance issue, but also because I dislike having to change my alignment to N to do an obviously chaotic quest.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1388
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 7
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 10
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 28
Votes against this feature 4
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-06-2013 09:15 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
I agree with Dogbreath that you (i.e. Stingray and Gordon) are advocating what basically amounts to a bug, because it has a side effect that you like. But it's still a bug.
From the character's point of view it's not illogical at all. As long as a Chaos Knight stays chaotic, the game has no hint at all for him that there is supposed to be anything like a village dungeon. So what's illogical about not being able to enter a place of which's existence you don't have a clue? It's apparently a problem for the spoiled player who knows that under different circumstances there would be such a possibility (if he changed allignment), but seriously: The truely illogical thing is the character changing allignment without having any clue of why he actually does it. That's some seriously bad role-playing in my eyes... in my pen-and-paper days we called that "power gaming"... and it was not very reputable among us ;-)

12-06-2013 09:22 AM
Ancient Member
It's illogical that if you want to play in a sensible way, you have to forgo roleplaying. It means that the game rules effectively disincentivate roleplaying. Why do I have to feel dumb and assume a disproportionate challenge if I want to roleplay?

12-06-2013 09:24 AM
Ancient Member
If no access to Healing for chaos knights is a priority, I think a much better solution would be to just totally forbid the Rynt and druid quests for CK's, even if they convert. That way no chaos knight will get Healing but you won't be incentivizing an unnatural way to play the game.

12-06-2013 09:33 AM
Ancient Member
But it's no more illogical than it is for any other character. If you want to get the healer quest with any other char, you are not allowed to take the druid quest, otherwise the VD does not exist. For a CK you are not allowed to stay chaotic, otherwise the VD does not exist. For every character there are restrictions that you have to fulfill in order for the VD to exist in your game... I just don't see the (logical) difference.
If there is a problem, it is that you probably get more power out of your character if you do the bad roleplaying. That could be solved by Stingrays solution: Making allignment change a whole lot harder, so it is really only attractive for roleplaying- or challange-reasons.

12-06-2013 09:41 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by GordonOverkill
From the character's point of view it's not illogical at all. As long as a Chaos Knight stays chaotic, the game has no hint at all for him that there is supposed to be anything like a village dungeon. So what's illogical about not being able to enter a place of which's existence you don't have a clue? It's apparently a problem for the spoiled player who knows that under different circumstances there would be such a possibility (if he changed allignment), but seriously: The truely illogical thing is the character changing allignment without having any clue of why he actually does it. That's some seriously bad role-playing in my eyes... in my pen-and-paper days we called that "power gaming"... and it was not very reputable among us ;-)
Alright, step by step.

You enter the Drakalor Chain.
You go to Lawenihlotehl.
You speak to Hotzenplotz (first NPC in the Drakalor Chain you ever talk to).
He tells you: There is a dungeon to the east where a healer lives. Go and kill him.
After that you are banned from druid quest. But (possibly) you can still go to Rynt and he will tell you about the carpenter.
The exact same scenario (with Rynt and Hotz reversed) is currently present in the game.

How is this illogical? What is wrong with such a clue - getting a direct order to go and execute a man in a predefined location.

12-06-2013 09:44 AM
Ancient Member
As long as a Chaos Knight stays chaotic, the game has no hint at all for him that there is supposed to be anything like a village dungeon. So what's illogical about not being able to enter a place of which's existence you don't have a clue?
I'd say from the character's point of view, people living in a village/town should know local area quite well - they know there is another town (Lawenilothehl) close by, they know there are two caves.
I suppose the same should be true for bandits including Hotzy - they are also locals, they know there is a village Terrinyo close by, they know about the healer.
There should be some way for initially chaotic PCs to find out the locations of dungeon(s) around the town, since it's common knowledge for the locals.
Maybe VD generated this way could be without Yrrigs and that version of it would have Jharrod's healing quest unavailable even if you actually perform his acts of mercy.
The idea behind this is that more dungeons available initially increase the chance to level up, get some items, maybe pools, herbs, altars. Some characters are deprived of that when technically they shouldn't.
Jharrod and healing is just added value and its availability only to non-chaotics should stay the way it is.

12-06-2013 10:02 AM
Senior Member
Gordon: if Hotzenploz knows about the healer, he obviously knows where he lives. I keep asking this over and over, but why should you have to talk to Rynt to generate the VD? Hotzenploz knew about it before you talked to Rynt*, he can give you directions just as good as Rynt can. How is that illogical?

*Proof of this: Rynt never mentions the healer, Hotzenploz tells you to kill the healer even if you've never met him or entered the VD. Therefore it's not you (the PC) informing Hotz about the healer's existence since in many cases the PC doesn't know of the healer's existence *until* Hotz tells him. Therefore, Hotz knew about the healer prior to your interaction with Rynt.

12-06-2013 10:05 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
[...]they know there are two caves.
That's the point: There are not two caves. There is a pool of three caves, of which in no game more than two actually exist.. So the world changes from run to run, depending on your decisions. This one coherent and fixed Drakalor Chains that you guys seem to be talking about didn't exist before, so why should it be different for CKs? The only difference is that CKs don't get a the payoff for not "creating" the Village Dungeon. It's not a logical difference, just a practical one.

12-06-2013 10:07 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
Alright, step by step.

You enter the Drakalor Chain.
You go to Lawenihlotehl.
You speak to Hotzenplotz (first NPC in the Drakalor Chain you ever talk to).
He tells you: There is a dungeon to the east where a healer lives. Go and kill him.
After that you are banned from druid quest. But (possibly) you can still go to Rynt and he will tell you about the carpenter.
The exact same scenario (with Rynt and Hotz reversed) is currently present in the game.

How is this illogical? What is wrong with such a clue - getting a direct order to go and execute a man in a predefined location.
Okay, so also a chaotic Chaos Knight gets this hint?

12-06-2013 10:11 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by GordonOverkill
There is a pool of three caves, of which in no game more than two actually exist.. So the world changes from run to run, depending on your decisions. This one coherent and fixed Drakalor Chains that you guys seem to be talking about didn't exist before, so why should it be different for CKs? The only difference is that CKs don't get a the payoff for not "creating" the Village Dungeon. It's not a logical difference, just a practical one.
I agree with you that the world is created through the player's decisions. But why is it that Rynt can create the Village Dungeon and Hotzenplotz can't?

EDIT: to your previous post.
The scenario I depicted can go for any character. For CKs it will also fix the inability to get healing without converting.

EDIT2:
Unsurprisingly, this is actually what the RFE is about in exact words. I feel like there is something wrong when the discussion was railroaded to discussing CKs getting Healing per se and then returned to the actual proposed mechanic 2 or 3 pages later.

12-06-2013 10:16 AM
Senior Member
Gordon (and everyone else), can you just forget about the chaos knight now? Chaos knights are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

The matter is simply that ANYONE who wants kill the healer quest must talk to Rynt. And after that, magically, Hotzenplotz has a change of heart and wants the healer dead. This is illogical. What this RFE is about is making kill the healer quest available by ONLY talking to Hotzenplotz. This is logical since he is the one who wants the healer dead and he is the one who knows where he lives. Now if chaos knights require special treatment after this, then open a new RFE.

12-06-2013 10:17 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
I agree with you that the world is created through the player's decisions. But why is it that Rynt can create the Village Dungeon and Hotzenplotz can't?

EDIT: to your previous post.
The scenario I depicted can go for any character. For CKs it will also fix the inability to get healing without converting.
Guess TB is the person you should ask about that.
I just tested a first chat with Hotzenplotz with a chaotic CK and he does actually not speak about the healer. So you can say: If a healer exists in your current game, Hotzenplotz knows about him and wants him dead. If not, of course he doesn't (and cannot) know about him. In my eyes that's perfectly coherent from a logical point of view.

12-06-2013 10:24 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by GordonOverkill
Guess TB is the person you should ask about that.
I just tested a first chat with Hotzenplotz with a chaotic CK and he does actually not speak about the healer. So you can say: If a healer exists in your current game, Hotzenplotz knows about him and wants him dead. If not, of course he doesn't (and cannot) know about him. In my eyes that's perfectly coherent from a logical point of view.
So apparently Rynt is a deity of Ancardia and can magically change the structure of the world and create people at will. And Hotzenplotz is just an ordinary crime lord.
Yes, this is perfectly coherent.

But wait a second, Guth'alak can magically change the structure of the world and create people at will. But this will cancel Rynt's ability to do that. So that's like two deities in a small village of Terinyo waiting for their champion to speak to them first.

In summary, TB's mechanic for choosing the quest is kinda strange from the day it is devised (since there is absolutely no mundane explanation to the player - and people tried to address this already, check this one - http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2216). But even it is strange, you should expect it to be consistent with itself - that is giving Hotzenplotz the same powers as to Rynt and Guth'alak.

12-06-2013 10:31 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
But even it is strange, you should expect it to be consistent with itself - that is giving Hotzenplotz the same powers as to Rynt and Guth'alak.
Yeah, and Bulp should be able to do it, too! He's sweet and we should not discriminate him!

Seriously, none of these characters actually "creates" the dungeons. Chatting with them triggers the existence, that's all. From the character's point of view the world in itself is coherent. They are not told about any locations that don't exist inside their particular world, so I don't see any problem with the mechanics at this point.

12-06-2013 10:43 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by GordonOverkill
Yeah, and Bulp should be able to do it, too! He's sweet and we should not discriminate him!

Seriously, none of these characters actually "creates" the dungeons. Chatting with them triggers the existence, that's all. From the character's point of view the world in itself is coherent. They are not told about any locations that don't exist inside their particular world, so I don't see any problem with the mechanics at this point.
Blup has nothing to do with these quests, while Hotzenplotz is involved directly.

Of course I was exaggerating about super-powers.

There is no logical explanation to why Hotzenplotz won't know anything about the healer until Rynt tells you about it. By accepting the mechanic you make Hotzenplotz to be on a lower scale of narrative importance than Rynt.

And the argument "only Creator can tell why" that is starting to appear here every now and then is completely nonsensical. Whenever anyone uses it I translate it as "I don't know why it is so and I do not wish to back up my opinion with reasonable arguments". Please stop using it.

12-06-2013 11:19 AM
Ancient Member
Let's be real here. As the 20-2 for-against votes clearly attests (note: that's a really big number of votes for an issue), I don't think any player against this suggestion is thinking it through critically.

I've put forward a pretty reasonable suggestion for why the quest was originally implemented this way just on the previous page and I think _Ln_ just reiterated it on this page. Many different people have posted here with basically the same cogent reason for why it makes more sense to change it to work this way. (also - let's be clear, I've never seriously played a Chaos Knight and I've done this quest the chaotic way A LOT of times in rapid succession on attempted Drake Barb speedruns, so I like to think I have a pretty vested interest in it). The "against" seems to boil down to (a) CK is easy enough and this makes them even easier [my response: who cares - this isn't particularly about CKs since it affects all C chars; don't play CK if you think they're too easy, and stop whining about it; classes can be balanced after the fact, including taking away the possibility for CK learning healing IF NEED BE - how hard is this to understand? I think Dogbreath has said it like 5 times!] or (b) it doesn't make sense [my response: it doesn't make sense now, the change makes perfect sense, if you disagree, well, you're simply wrong.].

How many times to the like 5+ different "for" people in this thread have to respond to the exact same argument before you actually THINK about what they're saying before you post?

12-06-2013 11:40 AM
Ancient Member
That's the point: There are not two caves. There is a pool of three caves, of which in no game more than two actually exist
Two caves is exactly what I meant. There is PC and there is either VD or DD. So, two caves. If a tiny girl knows about a cave, I suppose every adult in the village should know about it too, they just have no reason to go there or do anything about it, the girl does and thus she tells the player about it.
Perhaps Kranf Niest could give the PC quest instead of the tiny girl, IF the player character is C. He could say something along the lines of needing a (live) puppy dog for his sick experiments and could perhaps give back the corpse after he's done with it, so the twisted evil characters could still hit the tiny girl with it and kill her and eat it afterwards.
There are so many ways in which these quests could be altered that I think one suggested by the OP is the least invasive off all and at the same time makes perfect sense from the story-telling point of view.

12-06-2013 01:08 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
There is PC
...only if you trigger a certain event (= talk to the tinly girl). If you do not do so, you can play a completely coherent game in which this location just does not exist. A person who plays ADOM for the very first time would not (be able to) recognize any kind of logical breach, because the particular run's timeline stays coherent.

and there is either VD or DD.
One of these definitely does not exist in any of your runs. That's the foundation on which I say that each new ADOM run takes place in a new world and that the fact that you found a village dungeon in one run is no valid argument for the existence of this place within another run. So if Hotzenplotz does not tell you about the healer under certain circumstances, this can be explained logically by the fact that the healer just doesn't exist in the particular run. Without time-warping-save-scumming-actions it is (as far as I know) impossible to create a contradictory timeline within one single ADOM run, so the accusation of Hotzenplotzen's behaviour being incoherent appears to me defintiely wrong, no matter how this vote ends. He can behave different than he did in a past run, but that's completly explainable by the fact that each run takes place within a different world.

e: I have to correct myself. There actually is one problematical situation: When you talk to Hotzenplotz first, he doesn't talk about the healer. If you then create the village dungeon (and thus the healer), he still does not care about him and you don't get his quest even then. But even in that case, the game takes place within a different world and this might as well be a world where Hotzenplotz just doesn't know about the healer.
One thing that is absolutely for sure: This is definitely not a specific problem for Chaos Knights. Actually it touches them less then all other classes because within a pure chaotic run (which should at least be the prototypical run for a CK, I think) it's impossible to even create this situation. However, I hope that this thought brings me a little closer to the point that you tried to make with this thread?

12-06-2013 01:42 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by GordonOverkill
e: I have to correct myself. There actually is one problematical situation: When you talk to Hotzenplotz first, he doesn't talk about the healer. If you then create the village dungeon (and thus the healer), he still does not care about him and you don't get his quest even then.
Not true. That is the whole point. If you talk to Hotzy first, he doesn't talk about the healer - correct. If you then talk to the elder and talk to Hotzy again, he suddenly does ask you to kill the healer.

12-06-2013 01:55 PM
Ancient Member
Sure? At least in prerelease 5 I am very sure that did not work for one of my characters. I was a little disappointed back then because I really wanted that healing skill and thought I messed it up. If it's really like you say, I withdraw my objection of course.

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