Make potentials untrainable or trainable only limited times per game - ADOM & Ultimate ADOM Forums

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Make potentials untrainable or trainable only limited times per game

11-23-2015 06:43 PM

ixi

Junior Member

Number of reported issues by ixi: 51

Make potentials untrainable or trainable only limited times per game

First of all that would add more differences between races and probably classes in the end-game. In line with Harwin's suggestion it would make races different through the whole game.

Secondly it would add a sense to potentials. Currently potentials are a bit semi-potentials. They're just points starting from which increasing stats is more difficult but still possible.

Of course that would require attentive potential revising: no more potentials of 11 or like that because not allowing character to progress in RPG game is very annoying. Basically new potentials should provide a room for improvement during the whole game so that speedrunning characters wouldn't hit them but characters visiting every location and doing ultras would have to play hitting these potentials at least part of the game.

Another reason to remove hassle about potential training from the game entirely. No more that micromanagement, want to train: just train your attributes!
Yet another reason - when you hit the unchangeable potential you'll still have a usage for attribute-increasing items and for temporary buffs. Currently they become completely useless on 99.

If you're afraid of removing stuff of potential increase: I'm for keeping them but making it guaranteed or only. For example maze could contain 1-2 guaranteed random potions of stat potential increase.

Before you say "But I want my character to a superhuman at the end-game! I downvote!" please think of it. I'm not asking for making potentials low on each attribute! I'm for increasing them and don't mind if some race/class combos would have potentials of 95 (e.g. high elven archer deserves 95 dexterity, tree-born gnomish mindcrafter deserves deserves 95 willpower, mist elven wizard deserves 95 mana, trollish barbarian deserves 95 strength and so on). You still will be able to make your make superhuman characters, the only difference that they will be superhumans in one or in a couple of areas, not in every of them. On the other hand I would leave learning potential for very low for tree-born trollish barbarian (about 20-25).
If that's not enough you to agree - I'm for an option to turn off caps completely in deluxe just like you can turn hunger or corruption off there.

P.S. Please let me know if anything except my idea is wrong somewhere. Please let me know the cause before downvoted, if that's possible to fix a reason for downvote - I'll try alter this proposal to take that reason into account.

One more thing was pointed by JellySlayer:

Originally Posted by JellySlayer

If you make potentials very high to allow hard limitations on endgame characters, then you reintroduce the issue that herbs can essentially wipe out all of the early game differences between characters.

To address this I suggest to get rid of any fixed attribute caps and make them relative to potentials instead. For example moss of morelion would train dexterity up to 40-60%, strength training by burdened would have 20%, 25%, 30% and 40% instead of 15, 16, 18 and 20...

Issue Details

Issue Number 4091

Issue Type Feature

Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)

Category All

Status Suggested

Priority 5 - Medium

Suggested Version ADOM r64 (v2.0.3)

Implemented Version (none)

Milestone (none)

Votes for this feature 4

Votes against this feature 10

Attachments 0

Assigned Users (none)

Tags (none)

11-25-2015 04:57 PM

ixi

Junior Member

Originally Posted by shockeroo

The things you want to limit just don't happen over the course of a normal game. There's no need to limit what imaginative scammers choose to do if they want to do something they enjoy other than just beat the game in a more straightforward way.

Stop trying to police other people's fun. They're not detracting from yours.

Sorry, you see suggestion wrong. First of all I'm not suggesting concrete numbers yet. How could you know whether they will be hit during normal gameplay or not? Secondly I suggest to make all existing caps relative to potentials. This must change things that are currently pointless (e.g. caps of 25 regardless of the race) worthy. It wouldn't just limit your fun. It would add more fun because every game will be really different.

11-25-2015 05:03 PM

auricbond

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Blasphemous

In other words, I'm all for more race/class differentiation and I'd take that to extreme but not at the cost of culling powergrinder players and imposing hard caps on attributes/potentials.

Good for you then that the game doesn't already do this... oh wait.

11-25-2015 05:23 PM

Blasphemous Blasphemous is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by ixi

Are you trying to say that Mist Elf and Troll has exactly the same potential (99) in Strength and Mana? Odd...
Appears that you do want to see you characters the same at the end game?

No I don't. Most of my characters end up with very different stats at that point.
What I want is to have the OPTION to do that. Like so many other things, it's a feature that exists in the game but doesn't have to be used to play it or beat it.
Most of the time I go with the natural progression of characters, with the tendency to rely on a particular attribute that is important for the playstyle.
Sometimes however, I want to go overboard and have a pimped out character squashing all resistance. Right now, with the current system, the game allows for either playstyle if that's what you want.
Your suggestion however prioritizes one over the other. You're trying to steer the game mechanics to your tracks, while I would like it to remain flexible.

Originally Posted by ixi

Ok, if you try to think another way. If I were suggesting to increase some caps beyond 99 depending on race and class? E.g. for trollish barbarian - 200 strength, for mist elven wizard 200 mana, what would you think?
If such potentials were already implemented for races and classes would you upvote and idea to make them the same 99 for all?

Yet again, I don't see the point of such a change.
Increasing attributes over 99 in the way you suggest, is pretty much the same as your original RFE and as such I dislike it.
99 for all attributes for all r/c combinations is the hard cap and I'm defending it because it works for me and I believe overall works well for the game.
It gives me flexibility to shift my playstyle drastically depending on what I feel like.
Believe me I have finished the game with characters that were barely into their 20 on most of the stats and none above 30, excluding item boosts.
It's doable and it can be fun but another day I might feel like going for 99 and I want to be able to do that with the same effort as is required now.

Like I said elsewhere, I don't think doing anything with the attributes and potentials is the way to go if you want to further differentiate between classes and races.
Instead giving MUCH more class/race specific talents/abilities would work better while people like me would still be able to occasionally enjoy an archmage kind of game.

11-25-2015 05:53 PM

shockeroo

Senior Member

ixi and auricbond; the point you are missing is that THIS DOES NOT COME UP IN NORMAL PLAY. You are trying to put restrictions on a niche play-style that has little to do with the balance of a regular game of ADOM.

You do not get 40+ stats if you just play the game to win, even with ultra endings. I have multiple ultra wins and only in one game have I had any stats much above 30 - a game in which I went well out of my way to get ridiculous stats. I haven't done it since because it's tedious to me and I'd much rather get on with the game.

People creating 99 across the board Archmages does not and will never diminish the challenge and enjoyment of ADOM as a whole, nor the massive differentiation of most races throughout most of the game.

11-25-2015 06:15 PM

auricbond

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by shockeroo

Maybe what I considered my own normal play is actually abnormal, then. I take a cautious, slow, slightly grindy approach (probably because I don't start a lot of games anymore these days, so I make them count when I do invest the time) and wind up with stats of 40+ and get the impression that every bit counts... but I have often wondered if the level-scaling is rigged in this game such that it makes you perceive that you HAVE to do these things because that enemy was so tough... when in fact it was just upscaled. (Still mean to start a thread about this someday... I do have the strong suspicion that it's borked).

11-25-2015 07:47 PM

shockeroo

Senior Member

Originally Posted by auricbond

I have a too have a grindy playstyle, and often smith my gear up to +7/+7 upwards, but even I don't do much to push potentials in the latest versions. I'll eat the corpses and drink the potions that are readily available, but anything else is really unnecessary.

11-25-2015 09:31 PM

Scooter Fox Scooter Fox is offline

Senior Member

I'm not upvoting this because it requires a complete rebalancing of the game and not just establishing some hard caps that aren't even properly suggested in this issue. Potentials might as well not exist at all in their current state because three out of four reliable sources of increasing your stats, i.e. certain corpses, potions of [stat] and potions of gain attributes override them anyway.

11-25-2015 11:02 PM

Kelibath

Junior Member

I quite like the way that potentials at present encourage you to develop the character, but not TOO much, and delineate between the maximum physical capabilities of most creatures and magical support. It might be good to nerf the potential increase a little and increase the initial potentials instead, but I'd vote for that alteration to be a bit more moderate. It's more a personal preference than anything else, though!
I do agree with altering the current soft- and hard-caps on certain types of natural ability training to make more sense per race instead of stick at the same levels globally.
I usually end up with stats in the 20s-30s myself, but that's because I'm not amazingly skilled and generally just play for the story and experience. I'm yet to properly build a PoGA factory character.

11-25-2015 11:49 PM

auricbond

Ancient Member

I like the idea of persistent differences for races, but I also like the idea of a character being able to reach the same heights as any other with enough effort paid to the weaknesses (by the RNG more than the player, at the moment). Not sure why, I guess it's just a mainstay of ADOM. These things may seem contradictory but I think you can have both. So I can't get behind this idea, since it achieves one of those goals but removes the other.

If I were going to go down the fixed racial differences route, I'd consider racially adjusted training requirements. More gold needed at Garth to train strength if you're a hurthling, that sort of thing. And maybe an increasing chance of a stat increase (the potential pushing, guarranteed kind) failing for each point above a certain threshold, and either the chance or the threshold is racially adjusted. Let's also say the chance of failure is lower the stronger the source (so mino emperor corpse has a better chance than keethrax given a row of 40's... but keethrax should have a chance of working at 40's as well, so no more corpse-specific maximums).

That way, the influence of the choice you made at the race select screen can be felt across your entire journey (an idea I like) but you can still attain any heights if you put in enough work (another idea I like).

11-26-2015 05:44 PM

anon123

Ancient Member

Yet another reason - when you hit the unchangeable potential you'll still have a usage for attribute-increasing items and for temporary buffs. Currently they become completely useless on 99.

But the only people who will reach 99 points on any stat are archmages and scummers. And they'll still do it no matter what further changes are done.

In my opinion, potentials have been messed with enough already.

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