[RFE] Extend alchemy skill.
issueid=2671 01-23-2014 07:43 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Blasphemous: 110
[RFE] Extend alchemy skill.

I always thought that alchemy worked in such a way, that you could discover unlisted combinations of ingredients to make virtually all potions in the game.
That is not true however; brewing something that is not on the list results in fireballs all the time.
For characters with the skill, there is already a guaranteed recipe for PoGA, arguably the most useful potion in the game, though of course achieving 100 skill in alchemy to get it is no easy feat if you're anything else than a wizard or perhaps an assassin.
Additionally, it usually requires other uncommon ingredients to make, notably potions of strength and youth, but not every time.
Other potion recipes are also guaranteed, I don't know the exact list but there are potions of youth/longevity/cure poison/extra healing/insight... only their order of appearance and required ingredients vary.

My suggestion is to add several recipes for other potions.
Maybe make it so that another recipe is uncovered with every 5 additional points in the skill instead of 10.
That still wouldn't be even close to covering them all but it would be a start.
Recipes could also be introduced as a variation of scrolls.
Those could be obtained via quests (like additional Thrundarr's quest for 1-2 alchemy recipes) or rarely randomly found, starting from DL 8-10, so it would be possible to occasionally get one in DT shop or UD.

Of course, not all characters have the skill.
How to handle this issue could potentially bring out very divided opinions, with people on both sides most likely arguing passionately. There could be tears.
Hence, I will make a few suggestions of my own:

1) Add 10 more semi-random recipes to alchemy skill (the list is probably determined at the start of the game) with ingredients equally difficult to find as is the case with existing ones. New mix available every 5 points of the skill, leave everything else as it is.

2) Add recipe item to the game and make it possible to get recipes for ALL potions in existence.
Player could either have them added to alchemy list, or be forced to carry them around or simply memorize them.
If they have never been found, trying to brew the potion even with proper ingredients but without the recipe would still result in a fireball, like the case right now.
Successfully brewing a potion would have a 10% (or variable) chance to teach alchemy skill to the PC in question, if Le and Ma attributes are sufficiently high (15 points each? maybe a sum of both has to exceed 30? wild guessing here).
Skill would start at 1, dice would depend on Le and Ma as well as PC level and successfully creating more potions would train alchemy.

3) Make one of the existing NPCs be able to teach the PC this skill in exchange for a favor/gold/item. Also extend available alchemy recipes as described in point 1)

Personally, I'd lean towards the second option so that is what you would vote for if you press the Yes vote button ;)
In conclusion, 2nd suggestion makes alchemy learn-able but not easily trained, not OP, the list of recipes would be vastly extended and many potions normally discarded would find use.

There could be a mix of all of the above if that is the preferred option.
This feature would also create an additional incentive for melee characters to increase that Le and Ma to required values and obtain the skill.
Occasionally, being able to brew a potion of cure sickness, cure poison or healing would have a chance to save PC's life.
Another benefit and game improvement that this RFE has the potential to introduce, is that all those useless or near-useless potions of boost charisma, stun recovery, berzio, unused herbs etc. would possibly find a reasonable use.
Right now they pretty much land on the floor upon next sorting through inventory or a visit in a store.

I also understand that alchemy fireballs are somewhat popular and cheap method of dispatching certain monsters if all other means fail, but this was not the intended use of the skill and we all know it.
Mixing water with water doesn't create fire. Yes, the manual description says something about 'magical' potions but at the same time we have the assassin that starts with the skill and it's not a particularly magical or even clerical class.
Just a killer that likes to use poison and make it from all kinds of stuff.

One last thing to consider is something JellySlayer spoke of in the thread about Detect Item Status and Ruun: making a skill obtainable via training (or a quest) like point 2 (or 3) suggests, would mean that any character could learn it and thus distinction between classes would suffer.
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
FWIW, I'm sort of against any and all quests that tend to make classes more similar than they already are.
I think this is not true, mainly because alchemy has a significantly lesser impact on the game than other skills, given the rarity of ingredients and because it is so difficult to train by a class that doesn't already have racial/class dice bonuses.
It could be one of the skills that don't reach 100 points even at PC level 50. Also, the effort required to get the skill and raise it to reasonable value would equal the effort of waiting for a RoDS to drop in TotHK cavernous levels and just wishing for the skill.
Also, alchemy's usefulness is somewhat random as the recipes may turn out to be simply not worth it. Vast majority of PCs would also never brew the PoGA until reaching D50 where it's welcome, but not particularly necessary.

Anyway, what do you think about this?
Issue Details
Issue Number 2671
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 7
Status Suggested
Priority 8
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 0
Votes against this feature 4
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




01-24-2014 06:40 AM
Senior Member
I wouldn't mind seeing some enhancement of the skill, but not as extensive as you propose.

First of all, the selection of potions for which recipes exist agrees well with what real alchemist/philosophers might hope to make--this is why longevity, youth, and PoGA are always on the list. There are also three poisons. I like the flavor of the skill for this reason.

Second, in ADOM alchemy is magic. Hence the fireballs.

I would find the following minor enhancements fun:
* add 5 more recipes, randomize the list so that the player learns 10/15 (but always learns youth and PoGA)
* add 1 or 2 very useful recipes to the game, which you can only learn by fulfilling quests, finding the right statue, or something similar.
* randomize the type of elemental damage caused by an explosion

01-24-2014 07:50 AM
Ancient Member
Real alchemists/philosophers doesn't get too well with alchemy being magic. It either one or the other.
Also, agreement or its lack, with the real world conception of alchemy is... invalid.
This is ADOM, a fantasy world. Alchemy is supposed to be something much more here than it is, even theoretically, in real life.
Manual states alchemy is the art of brewing magical potions using ingredients and recipes.
It doesn't say anywhere that the skill is magical as it is available for both casters and non-caster classes.
Also, only the resulting potions are in fact magical.
This means that as a skill there simply *has* to be more recipes.
I don't see why my proposition is too extensive, the skill is barely used as it is because the ingredients are too often worth more than the resulting potion.
Who mixes water and extra healing to get booze? Doesn't make sense.
If the amount of recipes was extended (doubled) it would also ensure that at least 2-3 useful potions would be brew-able using common and otherwise useless ingredients.
Currently, 1 in 5 characters that start with alchemy can actually make 1-2 useful potions, the rest is just not worth it. This is not right.

01-24-2014 02:20 PM
Ancient Member
I'd be quite happy with option 1 or something similar being added.

I don't see why my proposition is too extensive, the skill is barely used as it is because the ingredients are too often worth more than the resulting potion.
I think this is intentional.

Currently, 1 in 5 characters that start with alchemy can actually make 1-2 useful potions, the rest is just not worth it. This is not right.
Alchemy is quite useful for certain PCs. It's the only reliable way to get the otherwise quite rare potions of youth/longevity, which is, IMHO, one of the most useful aspects of the skill. Longevity potions in particular are fairly cheap ingredient-wise (you can get them for a potion of cure poison and healing) and if you're lucky, longevity potions can be used for some better potions like youth or PoGA. If all you play is elven wizards, yeah, alchemy isn't going to seem that useful since its most important benefit is negating aging effects, not making PoGA. Potions of deafness and cure blindness can also be made for very cheap, which can be handy in various situations. Alchemy is also very powerful for the unlimited fireball effect. I've cleared greater undead vaults with a merchant using nothing but alchemy.

As I've said earlier, I don't like the idea of giving out skills to all PCs, as I think that takes away from the game considerably and would, if anything, prefer to see guaranteed skills removed or made more difficult to acquire. I don't find your argument to the contrary particularly persuasive, especially considering that you're combining it with the idea of a major buff to the skill. But that's just me. If anything I'd prefer to see maybe a few other classes pick up Alchemy--maybe Healers or Thieves for example.

01-24-2014 03:52 PM
Senior Member
There's nothing wrong with your proposal, Blasphemous, I was just expressing my personal preference.
When I play low-lifespan races, I use alchemy a lot for the longevity and youth recipes.
When I play high-lifespan races, I use it to get potions of blindness and extra healing.
Or at least, I hope to. Sometimes the ingredients don't work out, and that's OK. Sometimes I get to make my extra healing with potions of invis and balance, and that's really cool.

You know what might be cool? A full alchemist class that gets an expanded use of the Alchemy skill, the same way that necromancers get expanded use of Necromancy. This class might potentially
make every potion in the game (except perhaps potions of stat and potential stat, but still the PoGA with rare ingredients), and get to choose the element of the explosions-- maybe even change
potions into bombs that can be thrown or chucked with a sling...

That's I class I think I would have fun playing.

01-24-2014 07:40 PM
Junior Member
I Agree with the idea of making some workaround with the Alchemy Skill... For example like making talents related to the amount of recipes the PC can Access, like "Knowledgable Alchemist"(1 Extra Recipe(s) - Requires: Learned, Alchemy 80+), "Very Knowledgable Alchemist"(2 Extra Recipe(s) - Requires: Knowledgable Alchemist, Alchemy 100, Learning 20+), Prodigious Alchemist(3 Extra Recipe(s) - Requires: Very Knowledgable Alchemist, Learning 25+, More than 150 Successful Alchemy Checks.)

I Like the idea of an Alchemist class, too. They could make tranmutations of metals, working with gemstones, clay and pixie dusts to make dozens of impressive effects... Remembers me a bit to the uses of Alchemy in "Secret of Evermore" for SNES.

I find some observations here very interesting, I would find interesting as well to make some workaround in the explotions of the Alchemy skill... I noted that if you picked up herbs, and drop all potions you have, you can mix 2 herbs to make an explotion, something that I don't find too much sense...

I would find awesome to have some extra unsuccessful alchemy effects, like for example lots of Green blobs jumping out the mix(like 2d4) with a chance of Corrupting the PC slightly, or making a Cloud that Causes Blindness and Confusion, but no damage, or perhaps having a slight chance for the mix to transform in a Potion of Uselessness, etc.-

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