[RFE] Reduce needless item variety.
issueid=3737 06-24-2015 07:40 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Blasphemous: 110
[RFE] Reduce needless item variety.

This is a hot topic.
I know a small part of this has been addressed before, with the missiles of *foo* slaying and it worked marvelously, though many hoped it would have been extended to all missiles.
Rightly so.

Now, here's a very brief excerpt from a pile of items weighing around 40k stones, collected in BDC:

Code:
  
   a - uncursed chain mail (+0, -2) [-3, +8]                            [400s]
   b - blessed robe [+2, +1]                                             [60s]
   c - uncursed ugly clothes (+1, +1) [+2, +1] {Ap-1}                    [50s]
   d - uncursed black robe [+0, +1]                                      [50s]
   e - blessed robe [+1, +1]                                             [60s]
   g - uncursed robe [+1, -1]                                            [60s]
   f - uncursed robe [-1, +0]                                            [60s]
   h - uncursed clothes of sloth [+1, +0]                                [40s]
   i - uncursed ugly clothes (+1, +1) [+0, +0] {Ap-1}                    [50s]
   j - uncursed ugly clothes [+0, +0] {Ap-1}                             [50s]
   k - uncursed padded light furs [+0, +1]                                     [180s]
   l - uncursed chain mail (+0, -2) [-1, +7]                            [400s]
   m - blessed ring mail (+0, -2) [-1, +3]                              [300s]
   n - uncursed clean robe [-2, +1] {Ap+2}                               [60s]
   o - uncursed ring mail (-1, -1) [-1, +3]                      [300s]
4 robes, 6 if we count the clean one and the black one.
None stacking because of tiny little differences that bring absolutely nothing to the table.
I'm not even asking about the [0, -1] kind because I can't imagine how a piece of cloth can actually lower protection value.
Would it be so bad to fix *all* random robes to have [+1, 0]?

It's just a start.
There are two ring mails there which have the same protection and defense values of [-1, +3].
However they *slightly* differently affect melee and missile attacks.
Why? What's the point?
The difference is virtually non-existent.
It's non-existent even for starting characters that have enough to-hit at level 1 to not give a flying F about that -1 or 0.
The only outcome of that variation is extra inventory slots used and extra time needed to manage that.
I advocate to set that chance to hit to fixed values of (-1, -1).

Some armors notably affect said chance to hit in a more significant way, like full plate mails and plate mails in general.
That's fine, as long as the values remain fixed within that one item class, i.e. same for all adamantium plate mails, all mithril chain mails etc.

I know that you can roll a character like wizard or mindcrafter which starts with just a robe and a pair of boots in terms of armor.
Occasionally, that robe could be as high a [0, +4], which makes a big difference in the early game, especially if footwear also grants some PV.
Paladins and CKs especially can vary greatly in how much starting PV they have, which is ok I guess.
So let it stay in that case - items generated along with the PC could have that variety because they are just one of a kind.
It adds flavor and gives an early advantage on some lucky character rolls.

All of the above can be extended to virtually every piece of armor - helms, gauntlets, boots, shields, cloaks, etc., but also to weapons and especially regular missiles.
The variety could stay as it is for items with prefixes/suffixes because let's be honest - those are only desirable for the affixes, not the pv/dv or minor chance to hit modifiers.

Diversity is nice and I like it but only when it achieves something.
The only thing achieved here is extra pages in the inventory that the PC has to browse, and several more clicks when dropping or selling items, nothing else.

Here's a nod towards auricbond and gr3ybird who have reminded me I wanted to post this a long time ago.
Keep up the good work, I love arguing about tiny details with you guys ;)

Still on the wishlist: All item categories should sort entries alphabetically. That would be amazing. Perhaps another RFE.
Issue Details
Issue Number 3737
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 7
Status Suggested
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version ADOM r58
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 5
Votes against this feature 12
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




06-26-2015 10:19 PM
Ancient Member
I like what Blasphemous proposed. There's indeed too much items in the game that are better to be generated the same, without variations. Maybe even all of them should be generated without variations (DV/PV/to-hit/to-dam).
Several examples of common drops that are particularly troublesome:

AMMO & WEAPONS

* Rocks. It would be better if all rocks would be (+0, 1d4). ATM most of rocks have these values, but others JUST ANNOY you. I would like to have 4 stacks of rocks max at any time: blessed/cursed/uncursed/unidentified.

* Arrows and quarrels. Arrows/quarrels without prefixes/suffixes should be the same. Arrows/quarrels with the same prefix/suffix also would be better the same.

* Crude knifes, spears and orcish battle axes. All of these can be generated in the early game in large amounts and sometimes have good suffixes (crude knife of devastation, for example). Those with suffixes I would want to use as a melee weapon and it is not important if they have any variety in them. Others are useful as thrown weapons, especially in the very beginning of the game when you have no rocks/slings yet. The main reason why current situation with such items is not satisfying is that almost all of them are with different to-hit / to-dam values and they do not stack.

ARMOR, HELMETS, GAUNTLETS, BOOTS

This is a sensitive topic since [0, +3] robe is much more better than [0, +1], but anyway [0, +3] is almost like a studded leather armor, why don't have that armor instead of [0, +3]? The game sooner or later will generate that leather armor, it is heavier indeed, but that's the price of 2 additional PV.

Also when you play with a bad equipped PC, you should not generally rely on the fact that you will find [0, +3] robe (or that +4 orcish helmet if that matters) in the very beginning.

Regarding cursed negative PV armor, it can be uncursed too and good armor can be cursed too, so no difference. Also as the game progresses your +5 cursed elven chain mail (initially godsend gift) becomes worse. Therefore I see no problem that cursed armor would not have negative PV if this RFE would be implemented.

Instead of variation in DV/PV values of armor I would like to actually see any armor with suffixes/prefixes. Now you find it REALLY rare. The first time I saw vigilant armor was in Bug Temple and even now I don't remember what it does since ANY ARMOR SUFFIXES/PREFIXES ARE VERY RARE. You realistically can expect that you find some prefix/suffix on a robe, the most common armor but otherwise on nothing. This is strange and should not be. So instead of playing DV/PV lottery I would suggest to increase chances to have suffixes/prefixes on armor and play in suffixes/prefixes lottery.

EDIT. Forgot that clothes are common too. It does not matter though.

06-27-2015 11:09 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
It's not like people actually carry around 40+ pieces of armor in their inventory anyway.

[edit]Just to be clear, for missiles, I do think this type of idea is useful, as missile stacks actually serve some purpose. Stacks of robes don't particularly matter one way or the other.
That gave me an idea for a challenge game. Play an archer and kill monsters exclusively by throwing clothes and robes at them.

06-28-2015 10:26 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
I strongly against this proposal. I don't think that this item variety is actually needless. Item variety is one of features for which I love this game.

I do agree that the problem exists and should be fixed somehow. I'm against only the way proposed.

The first solution I see - introduce item size and backpack size. I just can't imagine where PC stores these tons robes, shields, spears, missiles, wands, books... Some roguelikes and RPGs do have item size and limit. For example Fallout II or Pixel Dungeon. This feature would entirely change the game so I don't even hope that it would be ever implemented.

Why some players want items to stack? Just because it's hard to navigate through PCs black-hole backpacks (but I guess it should be hard, just as it would be in real life)... The second solution I see - improve user interface. Add sorting, grouping and filtering to all screens where inventory is involved.

Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
4 robes, 6 if we count the clean one and the black one.
Come on, why do you need to carry with you so much junk? :)

P.S. Actually was against ammo variety fix. I'd love to see quiver implemented. But since the Creator decided not to add more complex constructions in ADOM - it was the only way left to make games for archers less annoying.

07-01-2015 08:33 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
I strongly against this proposal. I don't think that this item variety is actually needless. Item variety is one of features for which I love this game.
This.

Also, if to-hit modifiers are not meaningful enough, then make them meaningful. I'll support an RFE to multiply them by 2, 3, or whatever multiplier we think will make them actually meaningful.

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