Save Scumming to Manipulate RNG and Obtain Achievements
issueid=4684 02-13-2017 04:09 PM
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by Steamhawke: 1
Save Scumming to Manipulate RNG and Obtain Achievements
Saving and reloading before game-altering events allows for easy abuse of the RNG and achievement award system.

I understand backing up and reloading save games is a common (and frowned upon) practice in the rogue-like community, but this form of scumming can be abused on an extreme level in ADOM by saving right before a game-altering event and reloading until the desired result is obtained. This is particularly abusable in regards to gaming random events and allows for obtaining achievements in the steam release without much investment. A simple setup might look like this:

  1. Find a pool.
  2. Save right next to the pool.
  3. 'D'rink from the pool.
  4. If you didn't receive a wish (or whatever result you desired), forcibly close the ADOM process without saving.
  5. Reload game and try again until you receive a wish from the pool.


In this fashion, a player can obtain multiple wishes in a matter of minutes by simply closing and reloading the game. Similarly, they can completely avoid negative outcomes from pools and keep only positive outcomes. This makes tasks such as Ultra Endings MUCH easier by allowing players virtually guaranteed Amulets of Life Saving as soon as they find a pool (or make their way to one of the guaranteed spawns.) A quick trip to Darkforge could garner you all the necessary components to save Khelavaster and complete Gaab'Baay's quests, while granting you teleportitis, teleport control, permanent invisibility, and any many other intrinsics / gear pieces you could want, virtually risk-free. The easiest fix for this is probably to determine pool drinking results at character generation for the guaranteed pools, and on floor generation for randomly spawned pools.


This method can also be used to quickly grab otherwise hard-to-obtain achievements. Since achievements are awarded without saving or completing the game, players can knock them out with relative ease. Take, for instance, the multiple end-game achievements:

  • The White Eagle
  • Revered Martyr
  • The Grey Hawk
  • Neutralizer


Normally, obtaining these would require 4 characters to complete Ultra Endings, but they can all be completed with a single character given a little bit of preparation. Simply save right before entering the Chaos Portal, then kill Andor Drakon to unlock one of the achievements, reload, and complete the others.

In the same vein, you could rob the casino, then reload to unlock the achievement, but not face the consequences of the robbery. Story mode has been implemented to allow for saving / reloading in regards to character death, but specifically disables achievements so this method is something of a workaround.

I know steps have been taken in the past to help prevent tampering with save files, and I think taking measures to prevent the RNG abuse would help preserve the difficulty and spirit of the game. Players have to knowingly engage in these tactics, so they're not of terribly high priority to do away with, but their existence allows for a lot of presumably unintended abuse.
Issue Details
Issue Number 4684
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All Steam Versions
Status Unconfirmed
Priority Unknown
Affected Version ADOM 2.3.0 (r73)
Fixed Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 1
Users unable to reproduce bug 5
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




02-13-2017 06:31 PM
Ancient Member
I've never understood why some people worry so much about save scumming. It's something that is both universally regarded as cheating, and impossible to abuse unintentionally. Thus anything that "fixes" it is never going to improve the game. Cheaters are gonna cheat, and in a single-player game they are only cheating themselves.

As for specifics: knowing exactly what pool sip effects are going to be is still a big advantage, and I don't see any proposed fix for the achievements "bug".

02-14-2017 01:08 AM
Junior Member
Meh, let the people who want to cheat cheat. It's a single player game. Let people play the way they want to.

02-14-2017 08:47 AM
Ancient Member
Good way to fix would be official server... from what i recall about Jaakos and Alucard talking it really can't be super expensive or super complicated.

02-14-2017 04:54 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
Good way to fix would be official server... from what i recall about Jaakos and Alucard talking it really can't be super expensive or super complicated.
Yeah, playing on a server, so that the player doesn't have direct control over the game files, is probably the only way to stop save scumming (and memory editing). This is the way to go if you want to guarantee that there is no cheating in a contest or global highscore list. Anything else is just a band-aid solution.

That said, requiring server play for Steam achievements would probably not be well-received, as there are many potential issues with server play (server being up, internet being up, latency, etc). Also, I imagine that you would need significantly more resources to host a tiles/noteye version of ADOM.

02-16-2017 12:36 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
I hate too how I can cheat but I know for sure: nothing can stop me if I want. I can use tools to modify memory giving me infinite HP, can edit temporary files to put artifacts on my maps, damn, I can open OllyDbg and make "lost brother" message showing every time I'm generating a character or make shops 10 times as common as they're now. No techniques can prevent this, any measures can only slow me down. On the other hand any measures might require enormous effort from devs to do.

As it has been told, the only way to stop cheating is playing in a server where you don't have access to memory and file system. You can already do so but there is no point to force everyone to play online. Any suggestions how would you stop me from savescumming if I would want to?

Eventually every cheater just finds that the game isn't fun (isn't challenging enough) and either gives up playing or starts playing it the right way.

Also there was official advice from TB before if I'm not mistaken - TB isn't going to waste his time trying to stop cheaters.

02-16-2017 02:23 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Grond
Yeah, playing on a server, so that the player doesn't have direct control over the game files, is probably the only way to stop save scumming (and memory editing). This is the way to go if you want to guarantee that there is no cheating in a contest or global highscore list. Anything else is just a band-aid solution.

That said, requiring server play for Steam achievements would probably not be well-received, as there are many potential issues with server play (server being up, internet being up, latency, etc). Also, I imagine that you would need significantly more resources to host a tiles/noteye version of ADOM.
In theory, you can put something like asterix next to achievement if it was achieved on server. For noteye.... I am pretty sure most serious online games are not doing graphics on server side.

02-16-2017 03:44 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
In theory, you can put something like asterix next to achievement if it was achieved on server.
Would be nice to see. But if it's going to be official way playing online should be build-in in the game. So that you can open ADOM, choose online option, select a server (or specify your own) and play just if you were playing normal way.

Otherwise it would be just a punishment for those players who just want to play and get their achievements without googling about 'how to play ADOM on server' and what is the list of servers giving asterisks.

To me it sounds like an RFE to bring up rather than a bug related to savescumming.

02-22-2017 02:58 PM
Junior Member
The easiest way to fix it would be to have everything pre-rolled, like for crowning gifts. But I don't think it's such a big problem (is it even a problem) that warrants attention.

02-23-2017 09:09 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
It won't be a 100% fix. Imagine I want to drink from the pool. I'm saving and trying it out until dry up. Reloading. Knowing the exact sequence I'm getting back to this pool after a weak with means to deal with bad effects and accuire all goods if I want. If I'm offered invisibility I might visit arena first and only then get back to the pool.

Do that no, pre-generating everything won't make savescumming pointless. It will just make it different.

Also there are cases where it can't be applied. For example combat where are too much player choices to make it 100% predictable. So that anyone still will be able to save-reload until successful, penetrating or critical hit is delivered. Not sure if there is any use for it in ADOM. But if your's locked in a vault on PC6 with dead end having good armor but only a weak starting weapon, delivering enough amount of damage per hit and doing such hits faster than the statue can heal might be the only option to get out... Not sure though, didn't try to abuse it this way...

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