[RFE] Change limits for stat training, allow base stats to be higher than potentials
issueid=3119 07-12-2014 04:48 PM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by SinsI: 41
[RFE] Change limits for stat training, allow base stats to be higher than potentials
Use potential maximums instead of arbitrary limits to limit stat training, allow base stats to be higher than potentials

Before the changes to stat training in 1.2, after you've trained a stat to a potential maximum you could continue to train it and it would lead to increasing the potential maximum - which made those potential stat maximums irrelevant, and lead to introduction of new, hidden actual potential maximums that were universal for all characters - 25 for herb training, 17 for Strained Strength training, 25 for crystals of knowledge training, etc.

In 1.2 potential stat training was removed, but limits still stayed - which means that if you have a Strength of, say, 23, and potential maximum of 37 - you can't reach that maximum by training, which is extremely counterintuitive. What's far worse, any Strength draining for that character is irreversible and unfixable via training, especially since those arbitrary limits now use base stat value instead of current value so you can't use status afflictions or items to raise the training bar.

I suggest to remove all the arbitrary limits on training, using potential stat maximums instead.

Also, it might be a good idea to not instantly stop the training once it reaches those maximums, but to slow it down exponentially. This would necessitate renaming them to "stat aptitude", allowing to have base stat values higher than those maximums.
This way if you have a Strength Aptitude of, say, 10, you can still train it to 15 - but it is much, much harder.

One interesting side effect is that potions of Stat or Gain Attributes won't have to raise Aptitudes if the stat is already at maximum.
Issue Details
Issue Number 3119
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority Unknown
Suggested Version ADOM r48
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 9
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




07-12-2014 05:25 PM
Ancient Member
I like these ideas, indeed when a stat reaches ~20-25 and the potential is significantly higher, further training virtually stops.
Of course, some training is still possible - I seem to continue getting toughness increases past 25 when my character has the potential above that number and often has to naturally regenerate lost health.
Similarly learning keeps increasing even past 30 for caster characters since I continuously read spellbooks.
I think the rest of attributes could benefit from a little tweaking, especially strength, since it does make the potentials for them more or less useless if they are higher than 20.

07-12-2014 09:20 PM
Ancient Member
This was discussed in the original thread about the potentials change. A lot of people felt that it would be problematic if, say, a troll could just use herbs to raise their To up to a 40+ maximum early in the game.

07-13-2014 02:16 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
This was discussed in the original thread about the potentials change. A lot of people felt that it would be problematic if, say, a troll could just use herbs to raise their To up to a 40+ maximum early in the game.
That's not really an argument. Right now having Potential Maximum stats (except for Mana) well above 25 is useless or near useless (and potions of Potential Maximums change from extremely useful to completely useless at that magical number as well). If the high numbers are the problem, it is those numbers that should be reduced - but not the advantages of having those numbers.

Also, if herb training raises your attribute once every 1000 turns, you still need 15000 turns to get from 25 to 40 - which is anything but "early" in the game.

07-13-2014 04:06 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by SinsI
That's not really an argument. Right now having Potential Maximum stats (except for Mana) well above 25 is useless or near useless (and potions of Potential Maximums change from extremely useful to completely useless at that magical number as well). If the high numbers are the problem, it is those numbers that should be reduced - but not the advantages of having those numbers.

Also, if herb training raises your attribute once every 1000 turns, you still need 15000 turns to get from 25 to 40 - which is anything but "early" in the game.
You can w5 15000 turns in 20 seconds as long as you have enough food.

Potential maxima above 25 aren't completely useless. Garth training still works, and even natural training via athletics, etc. still give boosts.

07-13-2014 06:14 AM
Senior Member
I've gotten Str up to 30 or so from eating high-level giants. I think the issue is not when natural training starts to run out, but that some stats have reliable sources of unnatural training while others don't.

Str: giant corpses
Le: reading difficult spellbooks (esp. Wish)
Ma: kobold shamans and frequent PP depletion
Dx: bugs (if you're willing to retrain Wi after)

But I don't think this is a problem, and I don't think characters (even trolls) need to raise their stats to 30. Yes, the str drain from undead is especially annoying for trolls, but that just makes undead and greater demons something to be feared, and rightly so.

07-14-2014 06:14 PM
Ancient Member
I am also against this change for now. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but newbies *might* feel tempted to grind for the extra stat increase and spend inordinate amounts of time doing so.

07-14-2014 06:27 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by kapak44
I am also against this change for now. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but newbies *might* feel tempted to grind for the extra stat increase and spend inordinate amounts of time doing so.
It is not an "extra stat increase"!
If it is acceptable for a hurtling to increase his toughness from his base 10 to his potential maximum of 20, why should it be unacceptable for a troll to increase his toughness from his starting 25 to his potential maximum of 35, using the same time and method?
Note that Gnomes and Elves have no problem reaching that 50 Potential Mana; current limits unjustly favor casters that have low physical stat potentials and high mana potentials.

What does that increase of Toughness from 30 to 40 give? 25% more hitpoints? A few extra PVs that won't matter since Trolls already have great PV and have to fear armor piercing monsters instead?

07-14-2014 06:30 PM
Ancient Member
It may be worth reviewing the discussion in 1117 where this was discussed at length.

07-14-2014 06:34 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
It may be worth reviewing the discussion in 1117 where this was discussed at length.
that discussion was about ways to rise potentials (with end result being that you can't rise them at all short of potions, as far as I can see).
It had nothing to do with artificial limits on training present in the game.

07-14-2014 06:46 PM
Ancient Member
Er, it was almost entirely (mostly herbs) artificial limits on training. This change is explicitly proposed in the OP, and is debated at length by SirTheta and myself for about half the thread.

07-14-2014 07:56 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by BenMathiesen
I've gotten Str up to 30 or so from eating high-level giants. I think the issue is not when natural training starts to run out, but that some stats have reliable sources of unnatural training while others don't.

Str: giant corpses
Le: reading difficult spellbooks (esp. Wish)
Ma: kobold shamans and frequent PP depletion
Dx: bugs (if you're willing to retrain Wi after)

But I don't think this is a problem, and I don't think characters (even trolls) need to raise their stats to 30. Yes, the str drain from undead is especially annoying for trolls, but that just makes undead and greater demons something to be feared, and rightly so.
^This, although I'd disagree about Learning, as it spellbook reading virtually never works - spellcasters start with enough Le so that pitiful rewards from books will go unnoticed, other classes are unable to even read those.
When you think about from RL perspective, I'd say the following stats should be more trained more naturally -
Strength (already the case)
Dexterity (you are constantly practicing after all dodging the attacks)
Perception (try to constantly track movements of everything around you without getting better at recognizing patterns)
Willpower (you never sleep, rarely eat and constantly do something - I'd say that's a clear case of steady determination)

Mana is almost perfect to be trained while spellcasting and seems balanced very well IMHO.
Charisma we'll look in current version where companion RFE was implemented.
Appearance is rightfully (or is it?) never trained - if anything, you should get progressively more ugly after all that damage. Although an interesting quirk with races can be implemented to help balance the game a bit - say, humans would value perfectly shaped and built bodies (Strength), elves would value an untarnished beauty and grace (Dexterity) and so on.
Toughness puzzles me a bit. Regenerating health can be interpreted in both ways - (your body grows accustomed to the needs to fix damage and get more sturdier) or vice versa (really crippling for game balance I'm afraid). Getting better after sickness can be boosted in stat training (currently it's pitiful).
Learning seems like an unlikely candidate for natural training.

Another argument which may or not have been mentioned in the original RFE (sorry, JS, there's too much stuff there to read :D) is the following:
There is a fixed limit to burden training on Strength which is 18 (20 if you don't mind Dx). However, think of races, their potentials and the actual logic applied. If a human starts with 10 strength, he's averagely strong and can get higher with some training. For trolls 18 is about the average for all adventurer trolls. It will make sense for them to be able to grow stronger by using the same method as humans - carrying loads of stuff. Personally I think some actually "natural" training methods should not stop. As balance issues are sure to be taken into account, we can always impose something like (currentStat/potentialStat) penalty to make training available for all, but hard for all in the same manner.

07-14-2014 08:46 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
As balance issues are sure to be taken into account, we can always impose something like (currentStat/potentialStat) penalty to make training available for all, but hard for all in the same manner.
I like the idea of having things like giant corpses, training via carrying etc., be based on currentstat vs. potential stat rather than current stat vs. 18 or some other number.
However, that could be a pretty significant change. I might suggest modifying it slightly.
Right now you can use burden training to get up to 18 strength. Even a troll with 36 potential strength stops there. Bad for trolls. But if you set it to say 2/3 potential strength, then someone with 18 potential strength is now stuck at 12 (a very low value).

What if:
1) Burden training (for instance), capped at the higher of say, 2/3 potential and 16 strength. 16 strength is lower than the current 18 but not dangerously low. And someone with 36 strength could use burden training to get to 24.
OR
2) Ogre/Giant corpses cap at a fixed value, Burden training caps at a fraction of potential - so someone with low strength potential has a non-potion way to reach that potential, and someone with a high potential can take the speed penalty of being strained to keep training up.

07-14-2014 09:16 PM
Ancient Member
I think the system is fine as it is now, and I don't find it especially illogical. In real life, if you're a guy with a strong build, probably you can't get to your maximum potential strength by, say, walking around strained. You will need to do more extreme things to achieve that.

07-15-2014 09:22 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
I think the system is fine as it is now, and I don't find it especially illogical. In real life, if you're a guy with a strong build, probably you can't get to your maximum potential strength by, say, walking around strained. You will need to do more extreme things to achieve that.
No, that applies to carrying the same load constantly. By gradually increasing the load - which is what you do to keep being Strained as your Strength and burden levels increase - you should be able to reach that maximum potential; in essence, it is exactly what weightlifters do. It doesn't have to be exactly by carrying staff around - I'd say swinging around logs or Big Punch shouldn't lose to any barbell exercise.

And it is not a balance issue but gameplay issue - if potential maximums exist, when every character should be able to have some method (or methods) to concentrate to train and reach that potential maximum mid-game (so no unlimited gold), the way casters do with Mana. Only once this feature is implemented can it create a balance issue - but the balance issue would be with the actual values of those potential maximums and not with being able to reach them.

If you can't train them, then the potential shouldn't exist at all.

07-15-2014 10:48 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by SinsI
No, that applies to carrying the same load constantly. By gradually increasing the load - which is what you do to keep being Strained as your Strength and burden levels increase - you should be able to reach that maximum potential; in essence, it is exactly what weightlifters do. It doesn't have to be exactly by carrying staff around - I'd say swinging around logs or Big Punch shouldn't lose to any barbell exercise.
Okay, I admit you have just crushed my argument :)

However, gameplay-wise, I think this change would make it necessary to do a lot of balance tweaks... trolls would be hugely OP without extensive balance changes. I'm not sure if we want to open this Pandora's box... I don't know, I abstain on this one.

07-15-2014 11:32 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
However, gameplay-wise, I think this change would make it necessary to do a lot of balance tweaks... trolls would be hugely OP without extensive balance changes. I'm not sure if we want to open this Pandora's box... I don't know, I abstain on this one.
St training already slows the closer you are to 18 St. If, for example, you will receive 1 point to St training with 50% chance for traning to 19 St, 33% chance 20 St, 25% chance 21 St and so on - you will be required to move around while Strained! for a really long period of time, which will offset some St gains from slow training.

07-15-2014 01:12 PM
Ancient Member
You can go passed 18 St by burden training? News to me.

07-15-2014 01:14 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
You can go passed 18 St by burden training? News to me.
"If".

Allowing training past 18 St could be balanced by slowing this training. And technically yes, you could get up to 20 St while Overburdened!.

07-15-2014 05:02 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
However, gameplay-wise, I think this change would make it necessary to do a lot of balance tweaks... trolls would be hugely OP without extensive balance changes. I'm not sure if we want to open this Pandora's box... I don't know, I abstain on this one.
Recent changes (removal of ability to use statuses to train above the limits) already devastated balance, but only in reverse, making everyone much weaker.
And it is not the Trolls that can break the balance - very high Dexterity is a much, much bigger danger than Strength or Toughness: it gives better to hit, more damage to missiles (which due to higher crit multiplier are much more devastating than the best melee attacks - all without any danger to the archer), speed bonuses and DV, the only defense you should care after the beginning phase is over.
Trolls still have poor DV, huge food consumption, complete inability to read books, horrible mental stats, Appearance and Charisma, not to mention that any attack from Ghost Bat can kill them instantly.

07-15-2014 05:20 PM
Ancient Member
Toughness is the most important stat by a huge margin. It's not even close. PV is also much more important than DV as well, again, by a huge margin--maybe 3 DV = 1 PV. For casters, maybe learning edges out toughness by a hair.

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