[RFE]Upgrade Dungeon Features for Lategame Areas
issueid=3926 10-14-2015 06:21 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by JellySlayer: 114
[RFE]Upgrade Dungeon Features for Lategame Areas

A lot of dungeon features are currently fairly interesting/novel in the early game, but by the late game, are extremely inconsequential. I'd like to propose that certain features get swapped out with high end equivalents to make the endgame more interesting. These are only suggestions, of course. As a general rule, though, I'm trying to make these have a sort of parallel difficulty to their early game counterparts--eg. ant colonies are moderately difficult, so replacing them with something that produces doppelganger kings would not be appropriate since doppel kings are much higher difficulty monsters for an endgame character than ants are for an earlyish game character, proportionately speaking. Generally, I am thinking that these things should appear in late game (DL 30+ areas), possibly excluding a few areas (DH, notably). Note that DL 30+ does mean that the upgraded traps would appear in the lower levels of the Maze, which I think is kind of cool with the general increasing difficulty of the Maze, but that could be another excluded area, I suppose.

Daemon gate - replaces beehive in high DL areas:
Spawns a number of experienced fire/water/air/greater daemons. This could possibly be destroyed by kicking (say, it's a stone structure that summons daemons), but it doesn't need to be. I'd kind of like to have some small reward for finishing it, maybe just a couple of extra random items or something, but not necessary.

Elemental conflux - replaces ant hive in high DL areas:
Spawns a number of experienced fire/water/ice/air/earth elementals (and maybe a few greater ones). I personally like the idea of both this and the above producing random types of elementals/daemons, but an alternative could be to have each portal produce only a single type. I like random types better because the former way is basically just an extended threat room.

Healing spring - replaces pools in high DL areas:
Drinking from the spring completely restores HP and PP. Runs out after a certain number of uses (1d8, say). This one is kind of a freebie, but I think it's something that players would appreciate encountering. I think removing pools from deep DL areas is okay, since players rarely use them in the endgame. This could also replaces forges, I suppose.

Enchanted forge - replaces forge in high DL areas:
Smithing success rate is greatly improved. Small chance for adding random prefixes/suffixes. I'm torn as to whether adding affixes is necessarily a good idea or not, but I think having it only available in high DL forges is one way that could make it work.

Abandoned shop - replaces random gear shop in high DL areas:
A random shop's inventory is simply lying on the ground for the PC to pick up. Gives the same "abandoned shop" message as mimic tension rooms (and mimic rooms should not have the tension message anymore). This is another freebie, but so are shops generally, and it's not like gold is such an issue that you couldn't buy out an entire shop's inventory in the endgame anyway.

Tainted plants - replaces herbs
Increases energy cost for crossing them. Stepping on a tainted plant can corrupt, pierce the PC with thorns, or some other effects. Follows normal herb growth patterns. Could introduce a whole new generation of herbs, otherwise, I think picking them with herbalism could just give messages like "You pull the tainted vine out of the ground"; "You try to pull the vine out of the ground, but its roots are too strong"; "You try to pull out of the ground but only manage to prick yourself with thorns"; "A creature under the plant sudden springs from the ground! (+spawn shambling mound)"

Upgraded traps - replaces existing traps:
Light trap -> Paralysis trap (Inflicts 1d(DL/2) turns of paralysis)
Acid trap -> Noxious gas trap (Inflicts damage + heavy poison + possible sickness)
Teleport trap -> Ceiling trap (Same as usual)
Pit trap -> Spiked pit trap (Massive damage + Bleeding!)
Viper trap -> Shallow grave (Fall into pit, spawn a group of vampires)
Fireball trap -> Elemental trap (Explosion of random element)
Alarm trap -> Magic trap (Drains a massive amount of PP, chance to Mute, removes all active spells such as Strength of Atlas, Bless, etc.)
Arrow trap -> Eternium arrow trap (Big damage, scummable)
Corruption trap -> Chaos trap (Corrupts, teleports the PC, plus chance to inflict random status effects including Blind, Deaf, Mute, Stun, Confusion, Poison, Sickness, Slow, Paralysis, Drunk, etc.)
Water trap -> Water pit trap (Replaces the tile with a river tile, PC falls in and takes drowning/water damage as appropriate)
Spear trap -> Destruction trap (Effect of wand of destruction centred on PC)
Stone block trap -> Enervating trap (Random stat drain)

Upgrade door traps - replaces existing traps
Exploding rune -> Fine as it is
Collapsing door -> Death ray trap (Chance to death ray* if the PC is standing directly in front of the door)
Stone block -> Living wall trap (Instead of a stone block, a living wall falls on the PC; if not dodged, PC take damage, item destruction as usual, and has to fight the living wall)
Booby trap -> Elemental trap (Random elemental explosion)
Stunning rune -> Gas trap (Causes PC to fall asleep for 1dDL turns unless resisted)
[*]I dislike having random instakills due to death ray/petrify in general, but I do think these effects are grossly underused. Since door traps are quite easy to avoid, and this trap can always be safely avoided simply by standing diagonally to the door, as well as by dodging or whatever, I think this is an okay way to put it in. I was originally planning to write this as a petrify trap, but death rays already have a precedent for being directional and petrify resistance is quite a bit rarer, so I thought death rays would be more fair.

Upgraded rivers - see this thread for some ideas

Royal treasury - replace the gold with some more interesting loot (not sure what, precisely, maybe random loot or just random weapons/armor like Darkforge or something), add some extra royal guardians in the room.
Issue Details
Issue Number 3926
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version ADOM r61
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone Potential work pipeline
Votes for this feature 14
Votes against this feature 2
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




10-14-2015 07:47 PM
Member
Lost me at Death Ray doors.

10-14-2015 08:44 PM
Ancient Member
I think the trap conversion is a little harsh on *some* of the traps.

Light trap -> Paralysis Trap
Acid->Gas
Pit->Spiked
Viper->Shallow Grave
Fireball->Elemental
Arrow->Eternium Arrow

All of those basically do what they did before, but worse, as appropriate for higher DL.
Teleport->Ceiling seems tough, but at least consistent with Mana temple.
Alarm->Magic also seems a bit tough, but that Magic trap is interesting.
Water->Water Pit also more dangerous - adds damage not just bigger water effect.
Stone Block->Enervating.... ugh It turns one dangerous trap into another dangerous trap, so it's "balanced", but ugh.

The big outliers though are:
Corruption->Chaos. I feel like I can ignore corruption traps early on, but that random status effect could really screw me late game.
Spear->Destruction. Also huge change. Spears aren't that bad, destruction seems really large.


Also, I wouldn't introduce these all at once. I'd start phasing them in over various DLs.

10-14-2015 11:02 PM
Senior Member
I like about half of these ideas. Things that stand out to me as things I wouldn't want to see:
Magic trap (maybe lose 10% of your max PP... losing Atlas could instakill you)
Water pit trap
Destruction trap (maybe launch adamantium spears at you? you should have a better weapon anyway at that point and money is a non-issue since casino)
Enervating trap (leave teleport as-is, replace stone with ceiling?)
Death ray door

Most of the other stuff seems cool. Some concerns would have to be made like would any of these traps trivialize say, the Cat Lord? Is Mana Temple even possible without trap detection? etc.

Re: Enchanted forge... I know teleportitis is restricted and you can't starve while forging... do you still gain full corruption? If so, then this would be cool. If not, too OP.

10-14-2015 11:32 PM
Ancient Member
I think losing max PP is pretty nasty effect for a trap. I do agree that losing active spells could lead to SoA instakills. I don't mind too much, but this might just be me trying to spite the packrats :) Maybe greatly reduce the number of turns left on active spells? I think losing PP and possible mute is otherwise not too bad of an effect. For many characters it's really no effect at all.

Cat lord and other bosses is a good question. Does Cat Lord avoid traps? Not while panicking, I guess. On the one hand, this does give a bit of new life to wands of trap creation if you can find clever uses of these. OTOH, some these effects (paralysis trap in particular) are pretty powerful against monsters. I don't know how other things like Mute work on monsters, if they do at all. Mana Temple might be rough without trap detection, but by that point, you should have one of those wands anyway, if not the skills...

I think corruption still affects you when you smith because you still pass turns. At least, that's certainly part of the reasoning that I had thought when I put that in.

10-15-2015 12:35 AM
Senior Member
Jellyslayer, this is amazing. These are fantastic and extremely creative ideas.

Why do you not do this more often? I mean, you spend so much time resisting meaningful change to the game when you could be doing this instead.

Please keep posting RFE's like this. I would upvote this ten times if I could.

(Death ray doors may be a little much, that's my only quibble).

EDIT: Although, the name 'death ray doors' does have a great ring to it

10-15-2015 12:38 AM
Senior Member
By the way, the corrupting weed tiles with herb behavior are brilliant.

I wonder if they should damage items also.

10-15-2015 08:33 AM
Ancient Member
I would like to suggest certain late game ways to avoid some of proposed threats.
That way we don't simply have this new stuff added but have the mechanics also reflect an advanced PC's ability to avoid them:

- Have healing pools dry up immediately after using but replenish after ~100 turns (or possibly more, maybe 50d2?)
- Tainted plants should not harm the PC wearing artifact or eternium boots. I'm assuming the plants would not be too tall but PCs wearing artifact boots, gloves, body armor and headgear should be completely impervious to the thorns
- I am uncertain if the acid trap is really acid or poison. How does PC with acid immunity react to it? Poison immunity? Both?
- Magic trap would drain PP for chars with Willpower, say, below 40? 32? This is to prevent really powerful chars that command advanced magic from being drained by a silly trap. I don't reject the idea, I would just like to have a powerful PC's stats reflect the PC's ability to resist such threats.
"Your mighty willpower allows you to resist the draining effect!" Something like that. Otherwise it's too harsh and as somebody already pointed out - chance of insta-death in case of SoA removal. I'd say there is no need to debuff temporary magic effects from the PC since there are very few of those that people actively and regularly use. If there was some way to cast some sort of "magic corruption" on the PC that would force the PC to cast from HP instead of PP for some period of time, that would be more interesting.
- Enervating traps should also not be 100% effective, with high willpower chars able to resist the effect entirely

I have nothing against most of the other trap effects, I like them. It ups the challenge and would make me think twice before holding 4 or 6 in the late game.
However some life-or-death effects should be revised to prevent an arbitrary death sentence for a PC that happened to get a poor dice roll.
There should be several ways to avoid death ray traps for example, not just through resistance.
Traditional trap avoidance methods are ok but perhaps something like a few random monster corpses around the trap tile to indicate a death zone?
Notice also that you're inadvertently increasing difficulty for classes that are already challenging.
Permanently C- CKs that do not start with trap detection/disarm skills or with alertness, will be at a severe disadvantage without extra wishes to spare, as they cannot talk to the master thief in Bandit Town without changing alignments.
PC's with very low skill increase dice on mentioned skills (mindcrafters come to mind but there are others) will reach the respective DL areas of the game with the skills between 60-70, which, needless to say, carries with it a lowered chance of successful use.

In other words, for already powerful chars, the proposed changes will increase the challenge somewhat but not that much.
For disadvantaged, exotic classes, this is going to become a serious issue and add to their already considerably high difficulty.
A lot of these suggestion would have to be revised to fit into the difficulty balance.

With that in mind, you got my vote.

10-15-2015 08:50 AM
Senior Member
I'm definitely against buffing traps. Maybe some players would enjoy choosing between searching for traps on every step and random death/severe incapacitation, I surely wouldn't. If you want to fight item hoarding, don't fight it by improving item destruction. Limited backpack space would make much more sense, but I'm steering off-topic.

The general idea of having late game-only dungeon features is nice though.

10-15-2015 12:07 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Scooter Fox
Maybe some players would enjoy choosing between searching for traps on every step and random death/severe incapacitation, I surely wouldn't.
From my point of view that's the reason to change "Trap Detection" mechanics to automatic instead of manual. Or at least allow to search 5x5 / 7x7 area in one keyspress. Searching for traps isn't very cool indeed but that doesn't mean whole trap idea is bad.

Quote Originally Posted by Scooter Fox
Limited backpack space would make much more sense, but I'm steering off-topic.
I kinda wanted to propose this for a long time... But always thought veterans that got used to carry enormous volumes in their backpack would shut me off immediately. :)
However do agree, loosing SoA instantly isn't that good, some players would consider it completely useless taking magic traps into account. Just 3 turns of wear-off warning would solve the problem.
As for the item destruction - the biggest problem that it encourages to carry as much junk as possible to avoid destruction for important stuff. It just needs a rework. And probably would need some tweaks after new traps are added.

10-15-2015 01:54 PM
Ancient Member
Suggestions for changes to the ones I like least:

1) Enervating Trap. Make it cancel all buffs except SoA - put that on "you feel your great strength begin to wane". So you'd better do something right away.
2) Destruction Trap. Instead fire "delicate spears of darkness"? Delicate so that you can't really farm them easily. Or could be of penetration.
3) Corruption Trap. Corrupts significantly more than original corruption trap, spawns 1d4 WMoPC?

10-15-2015 03:50 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
I kinda wanted to propose this for a long time... But always thought veterans that got used to carry enormous volumes in their backpack would shut me off immediately. :)
If you compare Nethack and Adom, from mechanical standpoint two main differences are backpack limitation [weight vs number of items] and item destructibility [in most games the spear of devastation would last through all game]. These actually cancel work together as no backpack limit means char is very likely have backups for anything he needs.

No need to create storages is why I prefer Adom to Nethack, honestly

10-15-2015 04:46 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I would like to suggest certain late game ways to avoid some of proposed threats.
That way we don't simply have this new stuff added but have the mechanics also reflect an advanced PC's ability to avoid them:

- Have healing pools dry up immediately after using but replenish after ~100 turns (or possibly more, maybe 50d2?)
My only concern with this would be that if a healing pool shows up, say, near a greater vault, that you could pretty much exploit this endlessly and clear challenging areas very easily.

- Tainted plants should not harm the PC wearing artifact or eternium boots. I'm assuming the plants would not be too tall but PCs wearing artifact boots, gloves, body armor and headgear should be completely impervious to the thorns
- Magic trap would drain PP for chars with Willpower, say, below 40? 32? This is to prevent really powerful chars that command advanced magic from being drained by a silly trap. I don't reject the idea, I would just like to have a powerful PC's stats reflect the PC's ability to resist such threats.
"Your mighty willpower allows you to resist the draining effect!" Something like that. Otherwise it's too harsh and as somebody already pointed out - chance of insta-death in case of SoA removal. I'd say there is no need to debuff temporary magic effects from the PC since there are very few of those that people actively and regularly use. If there was some way to cast some sort of "magic corruption" on the PC that would force the PC to cast from HP instead of PP for some period of time, that would be more interesting.
Powerful casters are already drained by magedoom eyes, etc. without regard to stats, ditto for magical shock room. Draining PP is a pretty weak effect, even if it is all of your PP (which is not what I'm recommending). I'm not opposed to putting a chance to resist on this, but I honestly don't think it's necessary. For the plants, my temptation was to grumble that this would make it a trivial obstacle since endgame PCs should already have the stuff necessary to protect yourself against it, but I think that having some way of protecting yourself probably makes sense. Maybe not from the slowness effect, but boots protecting you from the thorns (or thick gauntlets from the thorns if you try to pull them up), makes some sense. Certain ranger/druid type class powers might render complete immunity from this as well.

- Enervating traps should also not be 100% effective, with high willpower chars able to resist the effect entirely
Yeah, some kind of stat check on this (luck or Wi or Ma) would be fine.

There should be several ways to avoid death ray traps for example, not just through resistance.
Traditional trap avoidance methods are ok but perhaps something like a few random monster corpses around the trap tile to indicate a death zone?

Notice also that you're inadvertently increasing difficulty for classes that are already challenging.
Permanently C- CKs that do not start with trap detection/disarm skills or with alertness, will be at a severe disadvantage without extra wishes to spare, as they cannot talk to the master thief in Bandit Town without changing alignments.
PC's with very low skill increase dice on mentioned skills (mindcrafters come to mind but there are others) will reach the respective DL areas of the game with the skills between 60-70, which, needless to say, carries with it a lowered chance of successful use.
Well, the trap only goes off once, so spawning a bunch of corpses around it would be a little weird. But door traps are not exactly hard to avoid. For this particular door trap, you have:
-Open on the diagonal
-Throw a huge rock
-Open with a key
-Open with a wand of knocking or knock spell
-Dig around it
-Open the door and dodge the death ray
-Open the door and resist the death ray
-Use disarm trap skill
-For CKs with moloch boots and monks, kick walls

...Probably more I can't think of immediately. I mean, yes, it does make doors considerably higher risk than before, but it's not like door traps are terribly hard to avoid for a high level PC, nor is death ray resistance particularly hard to get. You just need to actually use the tools available to you.

10-16-2015 12:01 PM
Ancient Member
My only concern with this would be that if a healing pool shows up, say, near a greater vault, that you could pretty much exploit this endlessly and clear challenging areas very easily.
Note that currently the situation isn't that different. You get low on HP -> evacuate to a level above/below, use spense or w5 with item of regen.
I don't think having the healing pool not dry up is a bad idea, if the interval for successive sipping is sufficiently long.
It wouldn't offer anything that you don't already have at the point in the game where you assault a GV.

Well, the trap only goes off once
My bad, somehow I got the impression that these trap upgrades would involve both door and regular floor traps.
For doors only, I guess there is indeed a lot of ways to avoid activating the trap.

10-16-2015 03:08 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Alarm trap -> Magic trap (Drains a massive amount of PP, chance to Mute, removes all active spells such as Strength of Atlas, Bless, etc.)
Suddenly a thought came into my mind.

My favorite classes are mindcrafter and necromancer. They both are able to utilize PP for non-magic. Both these classes already aren't as powerful as the other spellcasters. Undead slaves just can't cross D49 and take your experience. Most of them has low speed which is quite annoying. Mindcraft is nearly useless against ThE ELdeR cHAoS gOD and most of it can't be used against undeads and have bad penalty when used against chaos servants. Mindcraft can't be used without PP at all.

I don't want to see more penalties for mindcraft and necromancy even through PP loss is a weak effect. Heck, for mindcrafter it isn't as weak as for Wizards.

Hence I'm only for partial PP loss, say 50% or even 25%. Or ability to resist PP drain completely at Will.

Muting is already good penalty for Wizards. Most Wizards would restore enough PP anyway before mute wears off and they're able to cast again.

Edit: I'm not against high chances to mute. Spellcast needs a nerf in general and such a nerf is very small. And mute is extraordinary rare effect for now.

10-17-2015 03:54 PM
Senior Member
Good principle, some of the specifics need tweaking. Definitely don't like all of the traps. Stone blocks are already kinda dumb: they're only dangerous if you don't know to, or can't, stand at a diagonal. Adding death rays adds annoying equipment micromanagement.

12-27-2015 08:11 AM
The Creator
There are quite a few lovely ideas here that might get added instead of mini-maps (from crowd-funding) or stuff. I'll move it to that milestone for now for inspiration.

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