The rewards you receive for quests in ADOM are a bit all over the place and don't really have a sensible correlation to what you actually need to do finish them. I'd like to propose a variety of relatively small changes to rewards from various quests. Yes, this may involve a few quests getting a bit of a nerf, but hopefully people will accept this in favour of a corresponding buff elsewhere.
The Easy Ones:
These are quests that I have literally never seen anybody complete. The rewards just don't make sense and/or you need to sacrifice too much to make it worth the gain.
-Kill Tywat Pare. While I get the nice symmetry between Pare/Hotz asking you to kill each other and giving the corresponding amulet, the problem here pretty much comes down to the fact that the amulet of order is a useful, but fairly hard to get item, whereas the amulet of chaos is... junk. Pushing your alignment to chaotic isn't hard, and there's no reason to ever do this passively. Killing Pare is also a harder quest anyway, since you either have to made the town hostile, or pull him out of town and murder him elsewhere. I think Hotz needs to sweeten the deal. My vote is for a cloak or ring of invisibility. Either of these are somewhat rare or out-of-depth item for the early game, and can be fairly useful without being very OP. Also thematically appropriate.
-Sheriff's deputy. Did you know this quest existed? A second method to get an amulet of order is to lure Pare to fight some thieves. There's no reason for him to give the same item twice. This actually isn't hard to do... but maybe replace the amulet of order with something else useful in early game--maybe a potion of healing and a couple bandages.
-Kill Thrundarr. Like most of the chaotic artifacts, Amulet of Raw Steel just isn't strong enough to justify its corrupting power. This quest is also non-trivial to complete, since Thrundarr is fairly formidable himself, and doing this wrong will once again anger the town. My recommendation would be to buff the amulet. Replace all of its intrinsics (which are covered by mummy wrapping anyway) with -TCtrl and -Para. This makes this item the only guaranteed way to get two very useful intrinsics. Worth the corruption? Probably not, but it might be enough to at least tempt people in some instances. Another alternative would be to tone down the effects of Chaos and Corruption, as suggested in some other RFEs
-Kill Guth'Alak. The SoRS is actually pretty powerful and is occasionally used in particular challenge games. Killing Guth is pretty painful since it causes you to lose so much corruption removal... both unicorn quest and the extra PoCC. If PCs who completed this quest had an alternative (maybe chaotic only) method of completing the unicorn quest, I think that might be fair.
-Frog quest. Aside from a particular exploit that uses this quest, it's really rare to see anyone do this. Ap just isn't a high-value intrinsic, and the limitations of needing a pool, female, etc. make it really rare that anybody does this. My suggestion: The prince joins you as a companion. This quest should also only be able to be completed once.
-Quickling tree. The boots are still terrible. Curse + doom + corruption is too much for this artifact to ever be used. Either drop some of those intrinsics, or buff the speed more...
Quests with weird/bad rewards:
-Puppy Quest. You get nothing for doing this quest, and it's fairly tough. I get that it's a little girl giving you the reward, so you shouldn't expect much.
-Thrundarr Arena Quest. The set of blankets/healing potions is a very good reward. The armor reward is junk. Usually by the time you finish this quest, you have better or equivalent gear. One option would be upgrading the quality of the gear... make it all adamantium at least, maybe some eternium. Another option would be to give all characters who don't get the blankets/potions Rolf Saviour, rather than having this item randomly created.
-Kill Hotzenplotz (again). From the IQD. I'm assuming this is just a placeholder?
Quests with rewards that are maybe too good:
-Griffyard. Between the Sword of Nonnak, Elemental Gauntlets, a pile of PoEH and two useful wands, this ranks among the best value quest in the game--especially considering it is essentially mandatory to advance anyway. My vote would be to remove the two wands (Thrundarr already gives a fireball wand, and there's a guaranteed digging wand from Khelly). Having Thrundarr just give a pile of gold or gems instead of the potions/wands would not be out of line, IMHO. I kind of like having him give, say 2-4 crystals of health and 2-4 crystals of power and a bunch of money gems.
-Pyramid. Again, in terms of value, this is pretty much top-tier. Maybe a slight nerf to the AMW intrinsics (remove death resist... you can always get it from Nonnak or Raw Steel), or add in a speed penalty? Alternately, maybe make the Pyramid a bit harder... up the DL on the top level, say, or make Rahetep considerably stronger or give him some more interesting abilities. Aging attack? Paralysis? Maybe too nasty with all the other mummies around. Slowing attack might be a good one.
Note that because of the fixed layouts, a teleporting PC can conceivably complete both of these quests in <10 turns each.
-Find Blup's Mom (Ravens). As much as I love doing this, I think getting the RCT at level 16 is probably a little early considering everyone else has to wait until level 36. Especially considering how the XP curve is currently set, many characters will be getting this at D:50, or even finishing the game before it becomes available, while Ravens get this at a very useful point before the ToEF. I'd move it to level 20 for Ravens and 30 for everyone else.
I think a few of these should definitely be changed like kill the sheriff and the frog quest while the others I think don't need much more than a few small tweaks. The frog quest due to it's rarity I feel should have a much better reward but should only be able to be completed once, although the reward shouldn't be so good that everyone makes female characters in the case that they get the frog quest from a pool. Kill the Sheriff is easily the worst reward from any quest because at least the puppy quest swings your alignment and I feel killing the sheriff should at least lower the shop prices in the black market.
The rest of the changes I'm not entirely sure about, but these two stand out to me. Maybe slightly changing the level requirements for RCT as well, I almost never do that quest because I might as well not get anything from it most of the time. Or to make things interesting, Blup's mom could drop the trident when she dies if you don't talk to her about blup.
Only the Kill Tywat Pare suggestion seems fine, the other ones do not. Voting no.
- Sheriff's deputy - it's nice to have a 2nd option for an amulet of order. On occasion, they get destroyed.
- Puppy quest - the reward itself is a new challenging dungeon in the early game. The 'reward' is just a flavour item.
- Quickling tree - the actual reward is the speed boost. Also the boots are good ratling fodder.
- Kherab's quests - fine and chaotic as-is. The amulet is junk, apart from being ratling food, but it's fine to have that before being able to create the shield.
- Frog quest - who cares? ;-)
Also disagreeing with the pyramid and graveyard quests being "too good". Moreover, Raven starsign is hyperboring, and it's a nice twist to try to get to save Blup before or on lvl 16, then go brutally slaughter the pyramid. :)
- Kherab's quests - fine and chaotic as-is. The amulet is junk, apart from being ratling food, but it's fine to have that before being able to create the shield.
?.. shield comes before amulet in raw steel series.
I agree that the pyramid and Griffyard are too good.
For Griffyard I would suggest moving gauntlets to another quest/area (they have not thematic bond with quests or graveyard). Pyramid.... i don't know how to fix.
A note about The Pyramid -- If we do buff the power of the pyramid, *please* also increase the level cap for it. Some of us who aren't god-tier at the game still have a lot of trouble with the Pyramid at level 16. As I've said on here before, I've been playing the game for over a decade, and still have never won. I've died plenty of times in the pyramid (stupid mummies occasionally proccing Sickness...), and it's still a fairly challenging encounter on the top floor. I agree that getting two artifacts out of it is maybe a little much for the challenge, so maybe there needs to be a tweak in the rewards instead of the difficulty?
Kind of the same with Blup's Mom. Who is actually completing this quest at 16?? I've had characters in the mid-20's that haven't been able to do it. JellySlayer, you're kind of pro at this game at this point, I think we all know it. While I agree with a lot of the early-game stuff you're mentioning, I think you're assuming a level of skill in later stages of the game that not everybody has.
EDIT: To the above-posters, I kind of agree that the elemental gauntlets don't really thematically fit in with the graveyard, so I don't really see a big problem with moving those. That also makes me think of the rewards for the Pyramid, though. If the Pyramid rewards are too good, maybe de-link one of the artifacts from the pyramid and move it elsewhere? Like, keep the item benefits intact, but change the name and give it to someone else. (Instead of it being an "Ancient Mummy Wrapping", change it to "Ancient Frost Dragon Mail" and have it as a reward elsewhere, etc.)
I definitely agree that some rewards should be altered, especially the reward from the quickling tree. I'm okay with the boots cursing and dooming, but the corruption for just carrying them is dumb (especially since it is so difficult to get).
Thrundar should offer what king of reward you wish to get, much like the Druid offers knowledge or power.
For the dwarf it could be Defense or Utility.
That way if you're low in the armor department you could pick that reward while if you need the utility items more... you get the picture, everybody's happy.
I think mithril is more thematically proper so I wouldn't touch it.
I can agree to the proposed raven nerf. Level 20 would be enough to get the trident, but borderline.
Still, it kinda makes sense.
As for the Hotzy quest, giving a ring or cloak of invis would be nice for taking out sheriff but I think a bit OP at this stage of the game.
I disagree about the wands from thrundar as well. The digging wand from Khelly is only guranteed if you happen to get aols to save him, which is far from granted and many people can attest to that.
There could be some other fixed way to get the wand with a guaranteed number of at least 3 charges, perhaps a miniquest of some kind, separate from thrundar quests.
The point is, there has to be some sure way to get it.
For the dwarf it could be Defense or Utility.
That way if you're low in the armor department you could pick that reward while if you need the utility items more... you get the picture, everybody's happy.
I think mithril is more thematically proper so I wouldn't touch it.
Honestly, this was the quest that actually made me write this RFE. I hate getting the armor set. It's such a terrible reward at this point in the game... this bothers me more than getting the PoGA from the Mystic instead of the SoCR. If this was the reward from the very first quest, it might be okay, but by the time you've finished all of the other quests to get to this point, you don't need this junk.
I disagree about the wands from thrundar as well. The digging wand from Khelly is only guranteed if you happen to get aols to save him, which is far from granted and many people can attest to that.
There could be some other fixed way to get the wand with a guaranteed number of at least 3 charges, perhaps a miniquest of some kind, separate from thrundar quests.
The point is, there has to be some sure way to get it.
You get a digging wand from Khelly either way. If you don't save him, it's only got a couple charges and might be cursed.
Puppy quest reward -- 5-10 random beneficial herbs the girl looted from her mother's garden? or a blessed pot of mana she bought on a travelling market to become a great magician
Elemental guantlets -- create a special grave in the CoC graveyard with a lich king guardian? and nothing in the secret crypt except a unique monster.
Armor set from Thrundarr -> adamantium armor with guaranteed prefix + adamantium one-hander with guaranteed prefix + medium adamantium shield
@daft inquisitor
You can do Blup's quest at any level really. You need 1 pot of invis, teleport control, teleport wand with 2 charges and Swimming. This all can be obtained very early.
- Kill Tywat Pare - I agree with the OP. I'd keep the amulet for flavor, but add another item on top, the suggested ones make sense.
- Sheriff's Deputy - Same as above, or could give the amulet of order if you don't have one, and another item if you already have it. Maybe a lawful mithril weapon?
- Kill Thrundarr - I agree with the OP.
- Kill Guth'Alak - I agree with the OP in that the chaotic alternative to the unicorn quest is needed.
- Frog quest - haven't ever done it, so no opinion.
- Quickling Tree - I agree with the OP, boots need buffing badly.
- Puppy Quest - I disagree with the OP here. A lot of people does this quest, this proves that the rewards are right. Lawful boost plus bragging rights and seeing the girl happy are enough.
- Arena quests - I agree with the OP.
- Kill Hotzenplotz from IQD - I agree with the OP.
- Griffyard - I agree with the OP.
- Pyramid - I think TB once said that he's going to implement an alternative quest, mutually exclusive with the pyramid, or at least he was thinking about it. This would solve the issue. I think the AMW is too iconic to change significantly IMO. The top pyramid level is not that easy for melee characters, I've had some characters die there. Maybe lower the maximum level required by 1 but I don't really think it's needed.
- Raven - I disagree with the OP. The starsigns in ADOM have always been criticized for being too bland/irrelevant (although some recent buffs have improved the situation for some of them). Raven is one of the most interesting starsigns, if not the most, I think it would be a bad idea to nerf it. If it's considered OP, buff the others so that they have more appreciable effects (but I don't think it's so OP, people don't take Raven that much with starsign selectors).
@_Ln_ Yes, because all of those prerequisites are just soooo easy to come by.
I'm talking about doing it the "proper" way. Honestly, any content in this game becomes trivial if you get lucky enough with pools/drops, so saying a certain piece of content is trivial just because there's *one* non-guaranteed way to complete it easily is ridiculous.
Honestly, I agree with _ln_ on this, tp wand is guaranteed, and tp control is fairly easy to come by. Also, how is this not the proper way to do underwater cave? It's pretty easy to think of this solution after doing this once.
The proper way is with rings of the fish for me, but I usually play casters which have no problems uncursing the rings afterwards.
I barely ever get bothered with swimming. Frost bolt or tele is the way to go in case of rivers.
Eh, swimming is nice because it lowers the energy cost of an action while you're in water, also I hate switching around my equipment when I go for a swim, so I literally never use the ring of the fish.
Most of chaotic quests in ADOM are kinda junky. I want to feel temptation to do a chaotic quest because its reward is significantly better and powerful but ADOM never provided me with that. Darkside was never even a bit attractive in ADOM. Mostly I'm referring to Kill Tywat Pare, Kill Jharod, Kill Guth'Alak, Kill Thrundarr and Kill Yrruir at least. Well, lawful quest analogs have better rewards and almost no drawbacks.
Kill Tywat Pare: agree with OP Kill Thrundarr: agree with OP Kill Guth'Alak: agree with OP but I think it needs a better buff, (Kherab is blacksmith hence eternium gear / weaponry makes sense, maybe guaranteed affixed items having both good and bad suffixes?) Kill Jharod: I'd love to receive something thematic from this mad doctor, for example a large pile of chaotic potions (raw chaos, sickness, blindness, confusion, poison, unholy water, either blood)? Kill Yrruir: Replace corruptions and PoGA but effect of 3d3 blesses PoGA and effect of 2d2 SoE. Shouldn't be a big deal at this stage of the game?
There is no much problems with other quests however suggestions do make sense:
Sheriff's deputy: really like the OP. It fits thematically. What would sheriff give you other than spare healing gear if you bring him somewhere to fight chaotic guys? Quickling tree: never considered this a quest at all. Just a terrible rattling fodder. Agree with OP. Thrundarr Arena Quest: agree with OP, especially like Rolf Saviour here. Kill Hotzenplotz from Ice Queen: agree with OP Frog quest: agree with OP but don't make prince hardcore. Or make him leave to his castle after PC reaches certain level. I'd also make this quest harder:
actually you don't need a pool and a frog message from there to complete the quest
. Just a side note. I always do that just to get a message but I'm loosing a lot more Ap from growing warts than I'm getting from the prince... Griffyard agree with OP but like _Ln_'s suggestion as well
But there are a few I'm uncertain with
Pyramid: Pyramid doesn't need a buff. Usually if I'm surviving through the puppy cave I'm dying there (playing ADOM more than 10 years as well). No changes to lower leveNo paralysis or slow plz. Aging attack sounds cool though and would be a great way to balance against trolls - they're more powerful by the time they're reaching pyramid. Not against change in AMW in any case. Find Blup's Mom: It's not that trivial to complete before level 16. I'm still considering Candle more powerful star sign hence see no reason to nerf Raven before it.
And finally:
oNe sHalL nOT tOUcH My PRecIoUs PuPpY qUeST! :) Test your PC in that dungeon. Try not breaking level 6th go for Kranch as well if you want to. Make this girl smiling. Get your lawful boost and as much as you want bits of candy. Get a message in your FLG ;) That's much more than any tiny girl could give you.
If something is really needed I would agree only on temporary / permanent luck boost.
P.S.: Note that because of the fixed layouts, a teleporting PC can conceivably complete both of these quests in <10 turns each.
That's a problem of teleport control, not with the quests...
Kill Jharod: I'd love to receive something thematic from this mad doctor, for example a large pile of chaotic potions (raw chaos, sickness, blindness, confusion, poison, unholy water, either blood)?
I don't know that this quest needs a significantly better reward, honestly. I think this quest is pretty much the only good example of an evil quest in ADOM that works reasonably well...
-It's much easier to complete. You don't have to dive nearly as deep, nor have to drag the carpenter back up to Jharod. Characters with very poor starting gear can complete this quest easily whereas the Yriggs part is trickier.
-You get a much better starting Healing score. Jharod gives you 20; Mad Doctor gives 60. For characters with poor dice in the skill (Mindcrafters, say), this can be a difference of 5 levels worth of skill points, and you get significantly better immediate benefits.
For non-casters, the downsides aren't terrible anyway... loss of Le and Wi is not a huge deal. Loss of Jharod himself isn't a big deal unless you happen to need to scum for PoUH.
@_Ln_ Yes, because all of those prerequisites are just soooo easy to come by.
I'm talking about doing it the "proper" way. Honestly, any content in this game becomes trivial if you get lucky enough with pools/drops, so saying a certain piece of content is trivial just because there's *one* non-guaranteed way to complete it easily is ridiculous.
Huh? Tell me, what's the guaranteed way to get the trident? Rift to get an amulet of water breathing? What do you have at level 20 to allow yourself to get into the cave?
Swimming is obtainable with a single potion of carrot juice. Pretty common item.
Teleport wand is obtainable with a single wand of item detection/scroll of item detection. Pretty common item.
Teleport control is obtainable with blink dogs. Getting it by level 16 is pretty common to me.
Boose is obtainable from the bandit town.
I don't know that this quest needs a significantly better reward, honestly. I think this quest is pretty much the only good example of an evil quest in ADOM that works reasonably well...
-It's much easier to complete. You don't have to dive nearly as deep, nor have to drag the carpenter back up to Jharod. Characters with very poor starting gear can complete this quest easily whereas the Yriggs part is trickier.
-You get a much better starting Healing score. Jharod gives you 20; Mad Doctor gives 60. For characters with poor dice in the skill (Mindcrafters, say), this can be a difference of 5 levels worth of skill points, and you get significantly better immediate benefits.
For non-casters, the downsides aren't terrible anyway... loss of Le and Wi is not a huge deal. Loss of Jharod himself isn't a big deal unless you happen to need to scum for PoUH.
Have to agree. In the early game it could make difference... In a short-term... However I can't remember dying with mindcrafter in that dungeon when I was trying to save the carpenter for a very long time. Probably for new players or speedrunners it makes much more sense.
Originally Posted by Harkila
06-07-2016 05:16 AM
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