make natural souces of pv unpenetrable
issueid=3924 10-11-2015 12:05 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Blank4u47: 29
make natural souces of pv unpenetrable

one of my pet peeves is getting my armor penetrated. i understand its necessary to even the playing field in the late game, but i find it odd that you receive full damage when it occurs even with a toughness of 50 and tough skin talents. i feel it would make much more sense that when a monster punches through your armor there should be a last line of defense; your body.

what im proposing is to separate the sources of pv for game mechanics purposes in much the same way it is done with dv so that for instance a fighters pv bonus from his class power counts as natural pv in addition to tough skin talents and pv bonus from toughness. so even with a penetrating hit you wont lose 100hp for instance, just 75.

i feel that this would do a few things, 1. it would make fighters class powers relevant in that you would receive 15% invincible pv instead of just more of the same. 2. it would stop some cases of instant death ( "the doppelganger king punches through your armor and critical hits you" yes this happened to me a long while back) 3. it wouldnt be too overpowered, because its very difficult to improve your natural pv.
Issue Details
Issue Number 3924
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority Unknown
Suggested Version ADOM r61
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 4
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




10-11-2015 04:26 AM
Ancient Member
You get a special message ("The -monster- targets a vital spot and hits you") when an armor-piercing monster hits you and you only have natural PV, so current behavior is likely intentional. But I do like this suggestion.

10-11-2015 10:23 AM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
I heard a lot of complains that PV is just of no use due to penetrating attacks and investing into DV only is much better idea. PV is usually helpful in early game when penetrating attacks aren't that common.

This idea seems like a musthave solution which would solve PV problem at least patrtially.

10-11-2015 09:15 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
I heard a lot of complains that PV is just of no use due to penetrating attacks and investing into DV only is much better idea. PV is usually helpful in early game when penetrating attacks aren't that common.

This idea seems like a musthave solution which would solve PV problem at least patrtially.
That's interesting, because I will normally take 1 pv over 5ish dv. Diminishing returns on DV is pretty bad, so it isn't really worth having dv above 60 or so unless you're doing smc at level 50 or want to dive to I:100+.

Damage from doppelgänger kings is special, iirc. It's always 20% of max hp on regular hit and 40% on crits.

10-15-2015 02:32 PM
Ancient Member
I'm more interested in how natural skin is better at stopping physical, armor penetrating attacks than for example artifact armor or eternium.
Natural PV, whether from talents or toughness, is for all intents and purposes the same thing, armor simply adds its own PV on top of that.
It's not some magic source that somehow stops armor penetrating attacks.
From the in-game perspective, lore and mechanics, this RFE makes no sense.
Besides, as already mentioned, vital spots will be vital spots, there is no fool-proof way of protecting those - you need weaker, more flexible material at the joints to allow movement.
At the same time, skin is typically not as thick in the joint areas for the very same reason.
From in-game description, that's what armor-penetrating attacks do - they hit those fragile places.
This also explains why monsters that normally don't ignore PV, will occasionally be lucky and ignore it - they accidentally hit that weak, unprotected spot, without really having the skill to do so consistently.

If anything, mastery in shield skill +tower shield at coward mode should completely block armor penetrating hits.
Those shields present a seamless barrier between the defender and the attacker, instead of jointed body armor of variable protection.
There aren't really any weak spots to hit through in a huge tower shield, especially one made of eternium.

10-15-2015 08:18 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I'm more interested in how natural skin is better at stopping physical, armor penetrating attacks than for example artifact armor or eternium.
Natural PV, whether from talents or toughness, is for all intents and purposes the same thing, armor simply adds its own PV on top of that.
It's not some magic source that somehow stops armor penetrating attacks.
From the in-game perspective, lore and mechanics, this RFE makes no sense.
seriously? so you are saying that damage resistance in the form of pv from an inhuman level of toughness should somehow be penetrated after the armor ON TOP OF IT has already been penetrated? right. I make no sense.
I never said it was some kind of magical defense source, just that the source of protection differed from the rest of the armor and should be treated differently.


Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
Besides, as already mentioned, vital spots will be vital spots, there is no fool-proof way of protecting those - you need weaker, more flexible material at the joints to allow movement.
At the same time, skin is typically not as thick in the joint areas for the very same reason.
From in-game description, that's what armor-penetrating attacks do - they hit those fragile places.
This also explains why monsters that normally don't ignore PV, will occasionally be lucky and ignore it - they accidentally hit that weak, unprotected spot, without really having the skill to do so consistently.
you just described a critical hit. a hit to a vital region causes double damage. if its a penetrating hit, it circumvents all pv not because its in a vital region, but because it "punched through".

Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
If anything, mastery in shield skill +tower shield at coward mode should completely block armor penetrating hits.
Those shields present a seamless barrier between the defender and the attacker, instead of jointed body armor of variable protection.
There aren't really any weak spots to hit through in a huge tower shield, especially one made of eternium.
now that makes no sense, because if they hit you in the first place, they went around your shield. and it does actually block penetrating hits, but they call it something else... a miss.

10-16-2015 01:28 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blank4u47
seriously? so you are saying that damage resistance in the form of pv from an inhuman level of toughness should somehow be penetrated after the armor ON TOP OF IT has already been penetrated? right. I make no sense.
I never said it was some kind of magical defense source, just that the source of protection differed from the rest of the armor and should be treated differently.
But it does not differ. Skin is skin, muscle is muscle.
You may be tough but a sword cuts through soft tissue with the same ease for all living beings.
If it penetrates eternium metal armor, how much easier it is to penetrate skin, even on the toughest of people?
And yes, it does so on top of the armor, that's the whole point.

you just described a critical hit. a hit to a vital region causes double damage. if its a penetrating hit, it circumvents all pv not because its in a vital region, but because it "punched through".
This message isn't generated for critical hits only, it also appears when your PV is ignored. Step in front of a greater moloch in full armor and let it hit you repeatedly.
It doesn't make sense otherwise because a character wearing only artifact items in all slots should be untouchable since artifacts are indestructible - PV ignoring monsters would fail to penetrate it because penetration means physical damage/destruction.
Yet even in that case, they keep hitting and damaging you. The only reasonable way to explain it, is that PV ignoring hits do it:
a) by punching through destructible armor (like killer bugs damaging my eternium plate mail repeatedly as I get hit)
b) by circumventing indestructible items and hitting weak spots directly
Both indicate armor ignored, only in different ways.

now that makes no sense, because if they hit you in the first place, they went around your shield. and it does actually block penetrating hits, but they call it something else... a miss.
Actually, the message is "you block the *foo*" but that's another story.

The idea of using a shield is based on the fact that it takes on the blunt force of the attack and because there is only air behind it - not body as in the case of armor (unless the attacker is lucky and stabs the hand that wields the shield - still worse than hitting the chest or belly).
A shield is meant to form a buffer so in case a weapon actually penetrates it and gets lodged in, it only hits air until further penetration is halted by the hilt reaching the structural part of a shield.
Shields negate the advantage of range in melee combat, hence why a master of shield protection using a large shield should be able to block ALL penetrating hits when he's actively defending (i.e. coward/very defensive tactics settings).
This is all wishful thinking though, adom is far from successfully emulating real melee combat and it only uses a rudimentary system that is meant to be fun and not realistic.

10-16-2015 01:51 PM
Ancient Member
Um, quick reply here, Im using my phone, you obviously do no know the difference between a critical hit message and an armor penetrating message. Look up the difference, as these two things are treated as mutually exclusive in Adom.
Also, we are dealing with a fantasy game in which your character is actually able to resist damage due to their extreme toughness. With that as a basis for my argument, this resilience shouldn't be curcumvented in the same way your armor is.

10-16-2015 02:36 PM
Ancient Member
Also, we are dealing with a fantasy game in which your character is actually able to resist damage due to their extreme toughness. With that as a basis for my argument, this resilience shouldn't be curcumvented in the same way your armor is.
Why not? Lich kings have no problems draining your toughness even when you have 99 willpower. How much easier it is to punch through PV equivalent of 50 toughness for things like greater molochs or greater claw/killer bugs?
For me, the resilience you mentioned doesn't differ from simple armor.

I realize there is a difference between crits and pv ignoring hits but I'd swear I had both messages appear interchangeably and mutually exclusively when dealing with monsters that ignore pv.

10-16-2015 02:56 PM
Ancient Member
Monsters that penetrate armor can also critical hit you, it's just a different roll and a different effect. When you receive the message "targets a vital point and hits you" it does double damage that's a critical, if it says "finds a weak point in your armor" or "punches through your armor" it means it completely ignores your pv.
I guess I understand what you are saying, but I feel that a character with 5 pv from toughness of 28 should be able to still reduce damage by 5 even though his dragon scale mail was penetrated.

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