alter the stat ceiling
issueid=4087 11-23-2015 02:30 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by auricbond: 264
alter the stat ceiling

I propose one of the following two changes, and then I'll explain why:

1. Stat ceiling for permanent stat at 40 or 50. 50 or 60 for gear modifiers, 99 for boost potions and corruptions.
2. Similar to above, but rather than an outright limit, whenever the game runs the function to increase a stat on a stat that has surpassed the limit, there is a slowly increasing chance of it failing to do anything. E.g. that PoGA may only end up increasing your str and wi and ignore the rest.

(I prefer option 2, you'll see why below)

Why:
1. Really high stats do not play much of a role except in making late game content less fun (I'll probably get someone telling me 'but, but... arch mage!' Ok, if that's a good reason to down-vote then down-vote)

I think that unless new content is introduced to justify such high permanent stats, the game should probably hold up increasingly less subtle signs saying "you may want to stop scumming now and move on/finish up the game". There is no reason to let players achieve a level of power where there is no challenge and it becomes boring. I know some people put choice on a pedestal and say if people want to spoil the game for themselves by becoming OP then let them, or that what is not fun for me may be fun for others but personally I prefer the dungeon-master (developer) take a firmer hand in controlling the experience and don't allow you to achieve too much power, particularly as it can happen unintentionally and one only realises the detrimental impact it had on their fun after the fact of doing it, or because the player has poor impulse control (those players exist and are not to be scorned or ignored, imo), or even the player acquires the means without scumming and so the game is asking them to not to (and know not to) drink that pile of stat potions they've gathered on their non-scummy journeying. Besides, a limit DOES exist anyway, so we're really just arguing where the line should be drawn. Maybe some would rather there were no limit at all, in which case feel free to submit an RFE proposing the opposite to mine.

2. It makes the benefits of corruption and boost potions feel more acute and coveted for characters who would otherwise have reached very high permanent stats. I often save those potions for a rainy day and that often ends up being right at the end of the game.
Issue Details
Issue Number 4087
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Rejected
Priority 8
Suggested Version ADOM r64 (v2.0.3)
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 3
Votes against this feature 21
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




11-23-2015 02:41 PM
Ancient Member
I'm not sure what I think yet(yes/no) but the idea I like best:
1) I'd make it a simple "50" cap. Easy to remember(for either soft or hard cap)
2) I wouldn't put any limit(well, 99) on for gear modifiers, corruptions, or temporary boosts.
3) Class powers that give a "+X" to a stat should allow you to exceed that. (Yes it complicates it slightly).

11-23-2015 05:41 PM
Ancient Member
Downvoted. I love archmage, I love getting my elven whip duelists to 80+ dx and squashing things.
This game has always had a limit of 100 and that is so ingrained into gameplay, I can't imagine not having that.
Plus the higher stages of ball spells would have to go and that's not nice.
It's a pointless change that you're suggesting: chars with ~50 in all attributes have roughly the same problems (or more precisely lack thereof) as chars with 99 in all attribs. Past certain point it just doesn't matter.
You will restrict the fun for a group of people (like myself) without bringing ANY benefits for the larger group (new players, speedrunners, casual players...) since they would never reach 50+ in stats anyway.
Citing dungeon master and not letting the PC grow too powerful is a poor argument - I play cRPGs rather than regular RPGs precisely because there is no such limitation.

Implementing it would, for me, quite effectively cap Adom at the last release that doesn't have that.
Big no from me on this RFE, no matter the shape or form, no amount of adjustments is going to make this proposition at all acceptable.

11-23-2015 06:10 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
Plus the higher stages of ball spells would have to go and that's not nice.
Oh, absolutely. Unless you don't ignore the part of the suggestion where I said that there are ways to limit-break (which makes limit-breaking a concept--I like that). Heck, you could make rare items that also allow you to transcend stat limits (i.e. stats invisibly raise past the barrier and you only see those changes if you equip the item). You can still have your boo-ya spells by drinking a few potions at the right time (and they could be buffed in tandem with this RFE as well, if needs be).

It's a pointless change that you're suggesting: chars with ~50 in all attributes have roughly the same problems (or more precisely lack thereof) as chars with 99 in all attribs. Past certain point it just doesn't matter.
I've made several points to support the change, and it meets my needs as a gamer, so it isn't pointless. Not the first time you've mis-used the word. Yes, past a point it doesn't matter-- which is why I say don't let it get to that point (except with potions and corruptions).

You will restrict the fun for a group of people (like myself) without bringing ANY benefits for the larger group (new players, speedrunners, casual players...) since they would never reach 50+ in stats anyway.
It would create fun for me. So yes, I favour my own fun over yours.

Citing dungeon master and not letting the PC grow too powerful is a poor argument - I play cRPGs rather than regular RPGs precisely because there is no such limitation.
No, what you call a poor argument is that you don't like the idea. That doesn't make it poorly argued, it makes it a difference in what we value in a game.

Implementing it would, for me, quite effectively cap Adom at the last release that doesn't have that.
Big no from me on this RFE, no matter the shape or form, no amount of adjustments is going to make this proposition at all acceptable.
I see you contradicting yourself. It already 'takes a shape or form'-- it's called the 99 cap. So why's 99 acceptable but 50 isn't? What is non-arbitrary about one number and not the other? Is it just down to arch-mage? The desire to be OP? Do you hate all games that remain challenging no matter how hard you try to break them?

Also the fringe that enjoys getting up to 99 could just have a special game mode that lets you reach unlimited heights at a small score penalty & continued access to achievements--call it old-school mode or something. Something tells me you'll resolutely reject that olive branch as well, with more emotion than explanation. No need to write it, I can see it now. :)

*EDIT
One further point: The abridged version of this suggestion is: bring stat limits in alignment with the maximum challenge level of game content.

So logically, you'd also be opposed to really difficult content being added that surpasses anything currently in the game that only characters with transcendent stats could safely face. Because it would bring around the same game-state as what i'm proposing; one where it's impossible to get OP because there's always something that surpasses you.

11-23-2015 06:56 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
I want to make an archmage eventually as well... However change makes perfect sense and I'm strongly for it.

One more thing. I'd make these caps race-specific. E.g. Mist Elf could have very low St and To cap around 30-40 but would have about 70-90 Ma cap. For Trolls low Le around 30-40 but High St and To around 70-90. This could make races really different at the end-game which was requested on this forum more than one time.

Edit: http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=4085
Looks like I'm a bit late :)

Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
This game has always had a limit of 100 and that is so ingrained into gameplay, I can't imagine not having that.
Hey, you've been playing a game without graphics for a really long time, your imagination must be wider! Try to see potential in this RFE. Limit of 100 was introduced just to fit all attributes into 80-width display.

11-25-2015 11:47 AM
Ancient Member
I love how auricbond splits my post and counters my every issue with semantics argument, but that's besides the point.
I would actually welcome new content that challenges the player at all times but I don't think this RFE is the right way to implement this - it's a cheap solution to a deeper problem.

I've made several points to support the change, and it meets my needs as a gamer, so it isn't pointless. Not the first time you've mis-used the word. Yes, past a point it doesn't matter-- which is why I say don't let it get to that point (except with potions and corruptions).
Yes, I misused the word, when you put things into perspective like that - it's not just pointless, it's harmful, since it takes a swing at my needs as a gamer and what you call points to support the change, I call at best bias, at worst attempting to enforce one's game play preferences on somebody else.

We're not discussing -

No, you know what? Screw it. I just don't like this.
Yes it boils down to me not liking the idea.
It's much easier to just press the No button so I'll do that next time without getting into needless arguments that virtually revolve around different gameplay preferences, something that will never have a common denominator.

11-25-2015 12:05 PM
Ancient Member
Haven't read everything but 99 upper bound for stats does not make sense indeed when 30 is enough for most purposes.

11-25-2015 01:00 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
Yes it boils down to me not liking the idea.
Yes, if... you boil it down.

It's much easier to just press the No button so I'll do that next time without getting into needless arguments that virtually revolve around different gameplay preferences, something that will never have a common denominator.
That's a shame.

Ill slip in one other argument I didn't make earlier: if reaching 99 is so important to you that you'd lock yourself to the last version that permitted it--regardless of what future enhancements to the game are made-- then that suggests to me that you've grown bored with playing the game in a more 'vanilla' sort of way and it can only be a matter of time before being OP/arch-mage becomes boring as well.

And just keep in mind one of these propositions does make the allowance for reaching 99, it just requires 20x the busywork. It's all a question of degrees in the end, and you seem like a glutton for scumming if what you've said in the past is any indication.

11-25-2015 05:06 PM
Senior Member
Deciding on a new stat ceiling like this is completely arbitrary.

This feature enhances nobody's fun and takes away some from others. It's just one man's view of what the balance should be.

11-25-2015 05:17 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by shockeroo
Deciding on a new stat ceiling like this is completely arbitrary.
Yes, unlike the figure of 99 which isn't arbitrary at all...

This feature enhances nobody's fun
I don't like being called nobody. And possibly not the three who voted 'yes' either. You seem to be suggesting that this idea is presented just to be mean.

This suggestion is one of addition, not subtraction. See if you can spot where that is the case.

and takes away some from others. It's just one man's view of what the balance should be.
Quite right! And where balance is concerned, people should be given what they want, not what they think they want. With few exceptions, players instinctively loathe nerfs-- to quote Blasphemous: 'no matter the shape or form'; it takes a broader-thinking view and think like a dev to rise above that.

11-26-2015 12:42 AM
Junior Member
One of the most important and celebrated aspects of ADOM in my experience is the fact that you can play the game in a variety of different ways and it presents nearly free roam of all these possibilities. These things make it appeal to the largest possible majority of people. The new Deluxe mode additions are almost uniformly designed to further increase this tendency. To my mind limiting those players who enjoy over-training and character development, super powerful characters which they nevertheless had to work to earn, and making the game less challenging via extraneous stat increases, TOO much, goes against some of the fabric of variability which ADOM has been carefully constructed from. I appreciate that it isn't everyone's preferred playstyle, but that to me is an argument for continuing to ensure the game is winnable without such methods rather than making those methods less accessible or penalising players who choose to go down that route. For that reason I'm not particularly enthused by the idea of deliberately nudging players back down into the CoC by limiting their maximum stats (the corruption timer does that quite nicely already). I know this has already been addressed in the original RFE text but it does seem like it works well with ADOM to me.

Some alternative suggestions I would probably get behind include increasing the number of kudos achievements for things like low-level victories to encourage players to try more than just a scummed style of gameplay. I also agree that, if we don't implement this RFE as written, potions of Boost Stat should be improved a bit. I do like the idea of modding max stats per race (as per ixi's suggestion) but I don't know if the starting values don't effectively model that already.

11-26-2015 12:59 AM
Ancient Member
Why 99. If the game had no limit right now, why would you stick the push-pin in there? Is 99 some code word for freedom that I don't know about? Is it impossible to make an arch wizard with stats of 95? I actually don't know the answer to that...

11-26-2015 01:03 AM
Junior Member
Exactly what I said - I don't condone the idea of limiting maximum stats to too great a degree or it would spoil too many other players' experiences of the game, and this issue is therefore not that attractive to me, but some variation is probably doable.
Changing things up so that maximum stats were variable from say 60-100 depending on class or race would be a change that also added interest.
Anything else is just a different arbitrary number to the arbitrary number currently in use (which was presumably chosen for ease, freedom of play, or some kind of balance in the first place) and at that point the ideal level is up for serious debate. Maybe a forum thread would work well for that, actually..

11-26-2015 01:21 AM
Ancient Member
I wonder if anyone even took in my limit-breaking equipment idea. "Amulet of potentials" or so. Or even amulet of the arch-mage. I could propose it as a separate RFE but it doesn't really seem justifiable just to break the 99 limit.

11-26-2015 06:46 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
Limit of 100 was introduced just to fit all attributes into 80-width display.
In one of the gammas, attributes can be pushed above 99 by stat-boosting items (a GoGS will take you to 111 St) and still fit in the display :)

11-27-2015 11:32 AM
Junior Member
The numbers or values displayed do not matter for at least me. I just hate the idea of "what is the best warrior race? any race." "what is the best caster race? any race.". If you do not count in the class powers, which many are lousy or do not make a diffence it really does not matter what race you pick after you reach a certain point of the game. And that point is quite early.

The maximum values can be 99 or whatever for all, but can't there be bigger differences? Make it so that for example a barbarian gains 1% melee damage per str point and fighter, assassin 0,9%, wizard 0,2% etc. Same for every stat. The options to vary the races would be numerous.

Different levels of spell avoid, chance to hit and to get hit, trap evade %, corruption rates, toughness affecting hunger, eye sight. Again, same for skills.

I quote my earlier post: "An elven wizard has been studying magic and reading scrolls for the last 800 years and then comes Krak, the 10-year-old troll barbarian with 3 learning who just ate two dark sage corpses and their literacy is the same."

12-28-2015 10:05 AM
The Creator
I dislike the idea and see no reason for change.

I don't perceive much actual gain from it as most players never get into the range of levels where this has meaning for them. And for the people who get there it probably would limit their enjoyment.

99 BTW is the limit as attributes scores over 100 would wreck the attribute display line in ASCII mode with it's less than 80 columns (as they would require three characters) :-) So historical reasons that still are somewhat valid today.

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