Tone down Maze rewards slightly
issueid=3945 10-21-2015 07:07 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by JellySlayer: 114
Tone down Maze rewards slightly

In an earlier RFE, the rewards from the Minotaur Maze were boosted because as of 1.1.1, the Minotaur Axe was... okay, but not really ever worth the trip. The Maze rewards now included a buffed up axe, an additional random artifact, multiple PoGA and PoCC, and a huge potential-breaking St and To boost from the Emperor corpse (for a small amount of corruption that can be immediately treated by the aforementioned PoCC). In a recent win, I worked out that well more than half of that character's stat gains came solely from the Maze. Plus there's a couple spellbooks, I think. This is a little over-the-top, IMHO, as clearing the Maze basically catapults characters to obscene power levels and makes the endgame really trivial. I do think that the rewards ought to be better than 1.1.1, but I think they can be scaled back a bit from their current state.

Honestly, I think the buffed axe, which is now more or less the best weapon in the game outside maybe the ToTRR and Justifier, is probably sufficient to attract players to give the Maze a try, but just scaling back a few of those things would be fine. I'd suggest removing the stat-boosters: Drop the PoGA and make corpse respect potentials, or still have it break potentials but maybe +3 St/To instead of +6/+6. If we wanted to go a bit further, I'd suggest dropping the random artifact as well. That would still make this a pretty excellent quest reward, far better than pretty much anything else available ingame, but not as spectacularly game-breaking as the present situation.
Issue Details
Issue Number 3945
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 3
Suggested Version ADOM r61
Implemented Version ADOM r62 (v2.0.1)
Milestone Potential work pipeline
Votes for this feature 10
Votes against this feature 9
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




03-06-2016 03:19 PM
Ancient Member
IMO the right balance would be in a middle ground between pre-nerf and post-nerf.

Pre-nerf was probably a bit too much, especially in the PoGA department; but post-nerf the maze is again not worth it except if you really want the axe. And characters that have reached that point in the game probably don't have that much need of it, as they'll have pretty good weapons already.

I would at least bring back the random artifact and maybe a couple of spellbooks.

03-07-2016 08:52 PM
Junior Member
For the people playing the game to the point of "overpowering anything" and "not paying attention to turn count":

There are A LOT of other things that could make your character overpowered if you are going for "grindy" wins. Those things don't even require mapping to go through, neither those things drain your stats and corrupt. So the right way would be to check whether the maze is worth visiting as a standalone location, not whether it's an "okayish" location to visit when you have already cleared the bug temple, don't pay attention to the turn count but somehow still haven't managed to find a melee weapon throughout the whole game.

03-07-2016 10:19 PM
Ancient Member
if you want a great weapon that's guaranteed, be l+ and get the axe from the mystic. Or complete dwarf quests and get big punch. Use big punch to clear darkforge-- guaranteed great weapons in there. All this can be completed before you can even get into the maze. The maze isn't where you go to get a decent weapon, it's where you go to raise your strength if you have the right supplies. Although the mino axe is pretty awesome, I generally don't use it as 1 hit killing things gets rather dull.

03-07-2016 11:00 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
IMO the right balance would be in a middle ground between pre-nerf and post-nerf.

Pre-nerf was probably a bit too much, especially in the PoGA department; but post-nerf the maze is again not worth it except if you really want the axe. And characters that have reached that point in the game probably don't have that much need of it, as they'll have pretty good weapons already.

I would at least bring back the random artifact and maybe a couple of spellbooks.
If you don't want the axe, you shouldn't do the Maze. What's wrong with that, precisely? The idea that particular location needs to have a reward that justifies every character going there even if they don't want the best weapon in the game by a huge margin is just bizarre to me. The axe alone is honestly a good enough reward to justify visiting. If you more random artifacts, visit the Frost Giant Caves. If you need spellbooks, try the Library. If that quest is not appropriate for your character, you don't need to spend the time there. Maze is an optional area.

03-08-2016 11:24 AM
Ancient Member
I frequently play chars like daggers-only assassins, staff-only mindcrafters or two-handed swords only barbs etc.
After a number of games where I got aotme and ditched everything else, I discovered I was incredibly bored with the outcome.
Thus, I ceased playing with aotme and instead visited the maze for the random artifact, which in the above cases could be serpent's bite, staff of wanderer, vanq or any other useful random artifact.
That was taken away from me so now I really have no reason to go there, even for the best weapon in the game, since by being the best it makes everything boring.

JellySlayer, not everybody plays super-optimally, which I believe is your measure used to determine if stuff is OP or not.
I for one like to leave a lot of things to fate and the maze used to fit that quite well with the random artifact.
I stash the cow axe somewhere and forget about it, even in case of the so called emergency.

I would definitely bring back the random artifact; pogas were indeed a bit too much and I don't regret that loss.
Spellbooks were rarely useful and by the time a caster got there, he/she typically already had plenty of charges of whatever spell they contained.
Cure corruption and strength potions made sense in my opinion but frankly I don't know if they are still there or not.

Jelly, you cannot diagnose OPness and UPness of the game features based on the best possible play because that penalizes a much larger group of casual players and only serves to force the minmaxers to grind more. That is not the point.
After a while, when you comfortably sit at 10+ wins with various chars, you hit the mark when things become predictable and boring.
Aotme only further emphasizes that, as any player eventually finds out.
This is why the maze rewards were so nice - they offered a potential alternative with the random artifact.

03-08-2016 03:48 PM
Ancient Member
Just to be clear, you're saying that the reward for the Maze is so OP in your mind that you don't even use it, right?

03-08-2016 07:52 PM
Ancient Member
No, unless you put an equal sign between OP and boring, which is often but not always the case.
I don't use it because it doesn't fit the playstyle on many of the chars I play these days.
Also, executor in the hands of assassin has a similar potential as aotme yet somehow I enjoy that one hander much more, it feels proper and works just as well, at least against creatures it slays.
It forces you to do something else when you face dragons/wyrms for example.
Finally, aotme kills diversity so I ditch it in order to mess around with other weapons and that is a constant source of enjoyment, even if deep down I know that I would have been a more efficient killer with the cow axe.

03-08-2016 08:16 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
No, unless you put an equal sign between OP and boring, which is often but not always the case.
No, I mean OP as in "overpowered".

Finally, aotme kills diversity so I ditch it in order to mess around with other weapons and that is a constant source of enjoyment, even if deep down I know that I would have been a more efficient killer with the cow axe.
Well, you can beat the game dual-wielding large rations if you want. I think that a weapon that is so good that it renders every other weapon in the game obsolete, to the point where players feel that they need to actively avoid using it when they find it in order to keep the game interesting, probably means that item is overpowered.

But let's set aside the axe for a moment. Excluding the axe, before this nerf, the Maze was still hands-down the best reward of any quest in the game. The stat bonuses alone were enough break the endgame, never mind all of the other goodies. Including the axe, the reward was just absurd. To get a roughly equivalent reward, you'd need to do the BDC quest and kill the Assassin Prince (Needle + Sting being approximately as good as cow axe), then you'd need to do the unicorn quest the chaotic way to get about half the stat points you got from the Maze, then you'd need to do the first Ice Queen quest to get the PoCC, and the second to get a few more of the stats you got in the Maze, and even then you'd still be short a random artifact and three spellbooks. Are all these quests--combined--easier (or less turncount intensive) than the Maze?

03-10-2016 09:25 AM
Ancient Member
Well, you can beat the game dual-wielding large rations if you want.
That's not the point and you know it. Nobody in their right mind would do that unless for a very specific kind of a challenge game and how often people play these?
Swinging serpent's bite, executor, kinslayer or some random eternium stuff of dev can be just as much fun and for 90% of monsters - just as efficient - as using aotme.
At the same time you can actually role-play it and maybe carry a few such weapons for different occasions.
That's why the random artifact was nice and I had at least several situations where that artifact was more desirable than aotme for the sole reason of specializing in that kind of weaponry.

I think that the optional nature of the maze somewhat diminishes how often people go there.
When you can get past the labyrinth and kill mino emp, you're already powerful enough to finish the game.
Getting aotme and all the other things at this point doesn't really make the game that much easier since you're already set for the end.
I had plenty of games with and without clearing the maze and I don't remember the differences being that substantial in the larger scope of things.
There are some costs of getting there (MM, tele, healing, item destruction, stat drains etc.) and putting your hands on the rewards and the ordeal that the maze is for many players, often puts them off and they just ignore it.

However, I guess you have a point, maybe the axe itself is just too OP.
Like I said earlier though, I don't mind having the other rewards removed/nerfed, like the poga and spellbooks.
On the other hand I disagree about the random art being removed.

Again, I have a strong feeling you're looking at the maze from the perspective of min-maxing and extreme efficiency.
Yes, for that the axe is absolutely the right choice, but that's not how everyone plays.

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