Missiles not stacking (again)
issueid=2841 04-19-2014 11:57 AM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by Qui: 85
Missiles not stacking (again)

As a follow-up to this: http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2822

And just to make it clear: The only simple fix I see is to remove all variability for to-hit and to-damage from all missiles. If you want that please file a separate RFE. Personally I do not like the idea too much.
Well, I'd say yes to that. I already assumed the fix for p21 would concern all missiles, and I thought it was brilliant. Disappointed it was not so. The issue is, if someone's using archery often, and has autopickup missiles on, there will be oh so much rubbish in the inventory with single arrows with different to-hit, different damage, different status and prefixes... And they are basically unusable, because having to reload after one shot is tedious and dangerous. Having base to-hit and damage the same would make less rubbish and more meaningful stacks.

And on the flip side - +3/-3 differences in to-hit/damage aren't all meaningful. I think we can live without them. And actually prefixed missiles could matter more.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2841
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 22
Implemented Version ADOM 2.3.0 (r73)
Milestone "Ease of Use" UI
Votes for this feature 18
Votes against this feature 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




04-19-2014 12:17 PM
The Creator
Let me hear your votes, folks :-)

04-19-2014 02:10 PM
Ancient Member
Positive modifier can make a difference in the early game when +3 is pretty significant, but I suppose we can also survive without them. An alternative would be to not let missile shooting monsters and traps leave a shot missile behind, but the milkers are not going to like that idea. I don't mind though.

Edit - Maybe those monsters and traps can always shoot missiles with the same modifiers? So, for example one specific Raider will only shoot +0,+0 arrows and the next one only +1,+1, etc. same for specific arrow traps. Maybe base the modifiers on the experience level of said monster or danger level of the dungeon level the trap is on.

04-19-2014 03:50 PM
Senior Member
Quoting myself from one of the previous RFEs -

Quote Originally Posted by asdf
Make any dropped stackable missiles in stack less of 6* - standard ones. ex: barbarian shoots an arrow. it could be ordinary arrow - in this case it would be uncursed +0, 1d6+0 arrow. it could be arrow of humanoid slaying - in this case it would be uncursed +3, 1d6+3 arrow. Same for small stacks. Enable random stats only on large stacks - ex: that 7 arrows dropped from raider could be anything.

* - 6 is an arbitrary number where i consider what to do with missile stack instead of ragedropping it.
Majority of the problem comes from those single arrows that litter characters inventory, i dont think that occasionally changing relatively large stack is going to be a problem, and removing missile variety altogether is probably a little bit harsh solution.

04-19-2014 03:52 PM
Ancient Member
I think the ideal solution would be a quiver so that we could ready different kinds of ammo at the same time.

If that isn't implemented, I'm torn... on the one hand it's a pity to lose detail in the game, but on the other hand, unstacking ammo makes it tedious to play archers (I've never played one far into the game for this very reason). So I guess removing the modifiers may be the lesser evil.

04-19-2014 03:54 PM
Ancient Member
I wonder, how about not removing modifiers entirely, but leaving only a small amount of possible combinations (maybe as a tentative solution for playtesting, to see if we like it or we prefer total removal of modifiers).

For example, standard arrows could be either (-3,1d6-3), or (0,1d6), or (+3,1d6+3), and no more combinations.

04-19-2014 03:55 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
For example, standard arrows could be either (-3,1d6-3), or (0,1d6), or (+3,1d6+3), and no more combinations.
That would be an excellent solution too, leaving 9 possible stacks of standard arrows (6 after uncursing). Still some variety, but no more tedious variety.

04-19-2014 04:35 PM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
More, you're forgetting about possible prefixes. I'd say have standard 0,1d6 and leave variety to the prefixes.

04-19-2014 04:39 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Qui
More, you're forgetting about possible prefixes. I'd say have standard 0,1d6 and leave variety to the prefixes.
Still several times better then current implementation (did i said already that i _love_ slaying ammo change?), could be enough. Removing variety full could be an option too, we could try it and see what happens (like with this new monster distribution).

04-19-2014 04:55 PM
Senior Member
What if arrow stats are made to be "fixable"? That is, you can essentially reset them to the default numbers, with just a little bit of time. This would be naturally beneficial for bad missiles, while it would be a user decision regarding good ones - do you keep that one uncursed +3, 1d6+3 arrow and one uncursed +2, 1d6+3 arrow, or reset them to +0, 1d6 to stack with all of the other arrows?

As for how, perhaps it could offer a prompt when you manually equip an arrow (not at prompt when you run out of equipped missiles) and there are other compatible arrows in your inventory?

04-19-2014 05:04 PM
Senior Member
"fixing" arrows would require manual actions on all those single arrows in inventory. Easier just to drop them in one extended drop command, that would not solve the problem.

04-19-2014 05:08 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by asdf
"fixing" arrows would require manual actions on all those single arrows in inventory. Easier just to drop them in one extended drop command, that would not solve the problem.
The prompt could easily have an "all" option, causing it to combine all arrows of that type. There aren't so many different types that this would be burdensome, and since you're just as likely to use the arrows when you equip them anyway, it actually reduces the number of actions involved.

04-19-2014 06:10 PM
Ancient Member
I don't like the idea of having an explicit command for "arrow-fixing" because it would totally break my suspension of disbelief. I'm not a realism nut, in fact I have always thought that fun is more important than realism, *but* mechanics, even if they are not very realistic, should at least be logical and make sense in the world. An archer stopping to blunt his arrows to make them worse just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, this makes the PC (who lives in Ancardia) make a conscious decision that will only benefit the player (an entity residing in a different world who the PC doesn't even know). "Hey, I will blunt my arrows because the guy who controls me from another dimension using an arcane device doesn't want to press so many keys". The interface should be a way to manipulate the world model, not the other way around!

04-19-2014 07:20 PM
Ancient Member
The most elegant decision and the only logical one, imho, would be to implement a quiver for arrows and quarrels and a pouch for rocks and bullets (all named quiver below for convenience). Only archers(and maybe assasins?) should start with one, everyone else has to find them. They should be dropped not very frequent by mobs shooting respective missiles.

They would be equipped in missile slot (although you can be harsh and make them use the tool slot) and missiles would be put into them on player decision and picked up by PC randomly, just like in reality.

The PC can have as many quivers as he wants and he can put different missiles in different quivers, item notes helps sorting the quivers. PC can also put quarrels and missiles in the same quiver but getting the wrong missile for the equipped missile weapon should make PC lose a turn picking another missile from the quiver.

Quivers could also have some chance for small DV and PV modifiers as well as chance for magical affixes. You could also make an artifact quiver.

P.S. unlike missiles, cursed quivers cannot be unequipped, making the decision to use one more responsible, since you can not change from sling to bow or crossbow and viceversa in this case and also can't drop anything else, like potions until you remove it. Gems can be shot from pouch.

04-20-2014 01:01 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
I wonder, how about not removing modifiers entirely, but leaving only a small amount of possible combinations (maybe as a tentative solution for playtesting, to see if we like it or we prefer total removal of modifiers).

For example, standard arrows could be either (-3,1d6-3), or (0,1d6), or (+3,1d6+3), and no more combinations.
Maybe -1 to +1 not -3 to +3?

-3 to hit and -3 to damage makes for an awful lot of fire wood, +3 to hit +3 to damage makes for an awful lot of dead monsters. Keep a small amount of variation but nothing that's going to be too powerful or too knackering. Unless of course the spawn rates are not equal, maybe similar to c/u/b?

Or just get rid of the variation completely! I'd rather have a single stack of 200 arrows and miss out on the occasional bundle of +2's (and of course miss out on all the crap with negative modifiers too)

04-20-2014 08:33 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by YourMum
Maybe -1 to +1 not -3 to +3?

-3 to hit and -3 to damage makes for an awful lot of fire wood, +3 to hit +3 to damage makes for an awful lot of dead monsters. Keep a small amount of variation but nothing that's going to be too powerful or too knackering. Unless of course the spawn rates are not equal, maybe similar to c/u/b?
I suggested +3/-3 because I think +1/-1 is almost unnoticeable. If we're going to get rid of some variation, I'd rather keep the variation that actually can matter (although +2/-2 could be a good middle ground too).

The spawn rates already do not seem to be equal right now (+0, 1d6 arrows are the most common) so they wouldn't have to be equal either if a change like this is implemented.

04-20-2014 09:11 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
I don't like the idea of having an explicit command for "arrow-fixing" because it would totally break my suspension of disbelief. I'm not a realism nut, in fact I have always thought that fun is more important than realism, *but* mechanics, even if they are not very realistic, should at least be logical and make sense in the world. An archer stopping to blunt his arrows to make them worse just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, this makes the PC (who lives in Ancardia) make a conscious decision that will only benefit the player (an entity residing in a different world who the PC doesn't even know). "Hey, I will blunt my arrows because the guy who controls me from another dimension using an arcane device doesn't want to press so many keys". The interface should be a way to manipulate the world model, not the other way around!
Think of it slightly differently. In the ADoM universe, it takes longer to equip missiles from your inventory/backpack than it does to fire from a stack already loaded into your quiver... but your quiver is designed in such a way that you can't just put two different types of missile together, as the quiver depends on shape, etc, to stack neatly. What you are doing with "fixing" is you are forcing your missiles together. For damaged missiles, where the stats are worse than expected, you are repairing them as best you can first. For the ones that are better than usual, you are instead forcing them into the bundle, and the process of forcing them does damage to them, just enough to reduce their quality back to "normal". It is assumed that the PC is smart enough not to force regular and damaged missiles together, so you don't get the worst of the set as a result.

It's all about how you look at it, really.

04-20-2014 10:39 AM
Ancient Member
I support the removal of to-hit and to-damage variety or at least narrowing the possible bonuses/penalties to -1/+1.
My very first idea was to be able to apply some skill (maybe fletchery) to unify the single missiles and put them together so that they would all behave in the same way regarding to-hit and to-damage.
Universal quiver would be the perfect solution but of course it requires some extra work on the code.

I posted my own RFE about this since I didn't notice that Qui made this one and I suggested there that only higher metal and prefixed/suffixed missiles should have their to-hit/to-damage variety removed.
They are naturally more rare and thus should stack more easily. As for iron missiles, I think that whoever makes them (kobolds, ratlings, raiders...) can be more or less skilled and this is the main cause of the differences.
Iron missiles are the most common and you can easily just opt to drop all the 1-2 missile stacks and only keep the big stacks, that's what I've been doing in pre20.
If iron missiles' bonuses/penalties were limited to -1/+1, and all other missiles (adamantium/mithril/eternium/affixed) were unified, this would already be a huge step forward without completely removing the diversity.

04-20-2014 11:34 AM
Ancient Member
I can see an alternative. It consists of 2 adjustments:

1. Reloading missiles of the same type should not cost a turn. Currently, when you equip a stack of identical arrows, this means that whenever you fired a shot, your next arrow is instantly ready to fire. Why would a slightly different arrow not be, then? It makes no sense..
When you run out of arrows, reloading a new stack of arrows should be instantaneous to be consistent.

2. If 1. is done, then all that's needed is a setting where you will reload missiles automatically, without any prompt.
Ideally, this should only work for missiles that are identical except for their to-hit and damage modifiers. That way, you can have variety in missiles, but be able to use them as if they were a single stack. And without worrying that you might accidentally waste your valuable arrows of penetration on a kobold, etc.

An additional advantage would be that this would also work when you're throwing daggers, spears or whatever.

[Edit] or the quickmark method could be used that Adom-Admin proposed in another thread. Would come down to more or less the same thing, only read that post just now. [/Edit]

If all that is too difficult to implement, I vote in favour of removing missile variety.

04-20-2014 05:25 PM
Ancient Member
I like the suggestion to have 3 varieties of normal missiles:
(+0, 1d6+0), (+X, 1d6+X), (-Y, 1d6-Y). Where X (the positive bonus) is 2 or 3 and Y (the penalty) is also 2 or 3, but not necessarily the same.

Note that the hit bonus would always come WITH the damage bonus, so you have 3 possibilities, not 9.

This way you still have "good" arrows (that aren't slaying) but you don't have too many types to stack meaningfully.

04-20-2014 05:44 PM
Ancient Member
Making hit bonuses the same as dmg (or 0) would be another gradual improvement, I agree.

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