Wands of far slaying
issueid=4279 02-25-2016 12:30 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Soirana: 30
Wands of far slaying
these wands do excesive damage

Apparently wands of far slaying affect character and monsters differently (and it seems it was not the case in 1.1.1).

In particular they seem to apply monster's PV to the damage, which means they are rather effective against certain monsters. I somewhat doubt they are meant to be that way.
Issue Details
Issue Number 4279
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 7 (Steam)
Status Fixed
Priority 7
Affected Version ADOM r65 (v2.1.0)
Fixed Version ADOM 2.3.0 (r73)
Milestone (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 2
Users unable to reproduce bug 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




02-25-2016 01:52 PM
Ancient Member
edit: never mind, I misread the meaning of the post

02-25-2016 08:22 PM
Senior Member
So, it is not 1d6 + something dependent on PP for monsters vs 1d6 for players, but 1d6 + monster PV? Or is it both?

02-26-2016 02:47 AM
Ancient Member
PP affects range. I thought range was factor included in damage, but I was mistaken.

In 1.1.1 wand always does 1d6 (well, at least from what I looked at and what sorear wrote in his wiki).

02-26-2016 01:02 PM
Ancient Member
In a recent game I almost executed myself with a wand of far slaying, and each bounce did about 1-4 dmg to me, I'm sure if it did 1-6 I'd have died. As it was, it did about 400 dmg to me after it was charged with 100 pp. anyways, I used that same wand to kill a room of ancient red Dragons, with about 5 zaps and about 6 bounces per dragon so 30 hits. I think that it does ignore pv, but that it may do more than 1-6 against monsters.

02-26-2016 02:20 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blank4u47
In a recent game I almost executed myself with a wand of far slaying, and each bounce did about 1-4 dmg to me,
Well, I would like to know how you checked damage for each singular bounce. Sum is essentially pile of dice - pile of potential dice (and second pile is somewhat random too) you shrugged. if you roll 30 dice just once. there is no reliable way to tell if it was d4 or d6 dices, if instead 30 you have slightly randomized number things get even worse..

I think that it does ignore pv, but that it may do more than 1-6 against monsters.
All magic ignore PV, no? (bolts, balls, breath attack, etc). This like fundamental weakness of PV.
In 1.1.1 monsters and player character is affected same way, somewhere in 1.2.0 something changed and now monster are hit for 1d6+ their PV. Greater molochs are hit for 100 per each passing... which might be more efficient than acid ball. Balor would need something like 15 zaps through (realistically probably more because he will shrug some)

02-26-2016 02:35 PM
Member
Actually, this doesn't seem to be just a bug with wands of far slaying, but with magic in general; if a monster is damaged by a spell (ball or bolt, from memory or from wand, it doesn't matter), their PV gets added to the damage. Or how else would you explain a lightning ball with 3d8+1 damage doing over 100 points of damage on a greater moloch?

A somewhat unrelated note I noticed while testing: ball spells don't make neutral enemies hostile. But that should go for another bug report (if it's not reported yet).

02-26-2016 06:56 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
Well, I would like to know how you checked damage for each singular bounce. Sum is essentially pile of dice - pile of potential dice (and second pile is somewhat random too) you shrugged. if you roll 30 dice just once. there is no reliable way to tell if it was d4 or d6 dices, if instead 30 you have slightly randomized number things get even worse..


All magic ignore PV, no? (bolts, balls, breath attack, etc). This like fundamental weakness of PV.
In 1.1.1 monsters and player character is affected same way, somewhere in 1.2.0 something changed and now monster are hit for 1d6+ their PV. Greater molochs are hit for 100 per each passing... which might be more efficient than acid ball. Balor would need something like 15 zaps through (realistically probably more because he will shrug some)
Firstly, you can calculate the average and get something close. So 1-4 is 2.5 avg times range lvl 30, 100 pp in un cursed, gets you 360 range, it bounced everytime, so that's 180 hits. 2.5*180 is 450 dmg, which oddly enough Is about the amount of damage I took. If it was 1-6 that would be 3.5*180=640 dmg and I'd be dead.

On the second point, I understand magic bypasses pv, I was mistakenly thinking you said it bypassed it by adding pv to the damage, in which case I just misunderstood you.

02-26-2016 07:04 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Jouni
Actually, this doesn't seem to be just a bug with wands of far slaying, but with magic in general; if a monster is damaged by a spell (ball or bolt, from memory or from wand, it doesn't matter), their PV gets added to the damage. Or how else would you explain a lightning ball with 3d8+1 damage doing over 100 points of damage on a greater moloch?

A somewhat unrelated note I noticed while testing: ball spells don't make neutral enemies hostile. But that should go for another bug report (if it's not reported yet).
I'm pretty sure if you have a high enough level to face a greater moloch you are doing way more damage than 3d8+1,
It's max{3, [2 + L / 4]}d8 + L + P So even at lvl 20 after never ever casting it you'd still do 7d8+20 which is 27-74.

Not sure on the second point, it always seems to hurt bystanders feelings for me, but I'll test it out.

02-26-2016 07:25 PM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blank4u47
I'm pretty sure if you have a high enough level to face a greater moloch you are doing way more damage than 3d8+1,
It's max{3, [2 + L / 4]}d8 + L + P So even at lvl 20 after never ever casting it you'd still do 7d8+20 which is 27-74.

Not sure on the second point, it always seems to hurt bystanders feelings for me, but I'll test it out.
The character was at level 1, and the stated damage was 3d8+1 I used exploration mode and wished for a greater moloch, in case you were wondering how I met one right at the beginning.

I also repeated the tests with several other monsters with varying PV values and different spells, and consistently the damage seemed to be just the amount of PV higher than it should have been.

02-26-2016 08:19 PM
Ancient Member
Ah, that makes sense, I Didn't realize you were that thorough! It's nice to see that. :)

02-26-2016 10:47 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blank4u47
Firstly, you can calculate the average and get something close. So 1-4 is 2.5 avg times range lvl 30, 100 pp in un cursed, gets you 360 range, it bounced everytime, so that's 180 hits. 2.5*180 is 450 dmg, which oddly enough Is about the amount of damage I took. If it was 1-6 that would be 3.5*180=640 dmg and I'd be dead.
Try rolling in http://www.roll-dice-online.com/ and for high level character i seriously doubt it was hit with every ray (DV, dodge, Alertness, etc). (you didn't had ItP talent, by the way?)

You can test rolls directly by zapping wand and choosing '5' for location -- and it totally does 6 damage on some occasions.

02-27-2016 01:23 AM
Ancient Member
Actually had high DV, dodge and alertness, was playing a ranger. And no immune to pain, went TH,DV, archery route. but you can't dodge your own bolts I thought? I'll double check this before I can claim that with certainty.

03-04-2016 02:35 PM
Ancient Member
Ok, so tested with a lvl 9 mist elf fighter, no blessed status, luck or fate smiles, it appears to be 1d6 in this case, however no dodging the bolt, with alertness at 70. Will test more, to see if other factors make less damage on roll, or if I'm just completely wrong :)

06-16-2016 07:51 AM
The Creator
There truly was a horrendous bug involved that added PV to damage without it ever getting subtracted again. Now fixed.

This petition for a change to Confirmed was accepted
11-08-2016 03:02 PM
Senior Member
As of r72, this does not appear to be fixed. Wand of far slaying still does vastly more damage to high PV monsters than it should; a 300 hp character can easily survive a set of bounces that kills a 1000+ hp ancient karmic wyrm, and a greater moloch takes significant damage from just one hit. Spells seem to also be doing more damage than intended: a set of seven un-shrugged acid bolts that should have had an average damage of ~200 took down a greater moloch with 800 hp.
 

This petition for a change to Confirmed was accepted
11-08-2016 07:35 PM
mtf mtf is offline
Junior Member
Agreed, this bug does not seem to be fixed in r72.
 

09-13-2017 06:40 PM
The Creator
I once more checked the code. Damage depends on:
- the specific effect (some base damage like "1d6" or "3d8" or whatever)
- the maximum and current range (+ distance in extra damage, -1 per field removed from the PC)
- the damage ignores PV

That explains why I very powerful charging of the wand of far slaying has tremendous damage potential (and some risk).

09-13-2017 07:00 PM
Senior Member
I hit both a quickling lord and a greater moloch at point blank with 1 PP uncursed far slaying at level 1:
Quickling lord: 3 damage
Greater moloch: 105 damage

Greater moloch is taking way more damage than quickling lord for whatever reason, and greater moloch has 100 more PV. Range does not seem to be a factor in far slaying damage (per hit) - otherwise the quickling lord would be taking way more damage.

EDIT2:
You can actually get wands of far slaying to do no damage against doppelganger kings if you have negative PV. With -6 PV from ring of doom, I got a "The attack doesn't penetrate the defenses of the doppelganger king!" message when zapping him with far slaying.

EDIT:
Similar test with lightning bolt (4d6+4 max damage, factoring in range):
Death ooze: 13 damage
Greater moloch: 116 damage

Way more damage (higher than the theoretical max damage of 28) on the greater moloch with 100 PV, compared to the death ooze with 0.

Similar test with acid ball (3d9+1 damage):
Death ooze: 15 damage
Greater moloch: 118 damage

Again, extra damage of around the PV difference, with the greater moloch taking way higher than the supposed maximum.

Similar test with uncursed wand of fireballs:
Doppelganger king (0 PV): 15 damage
Doppelganger king (60 PV): >48 damage

09-14-2017 04:16 AM
Ancient Member
yes, the issue seems to be with all magic (spells, wands, not sure about acid spit) and not with wands of farslaying... Maybe we should open another issue?

09-14-2017 09:40 AM
The Creator
More searching finally yielded the problem. It's weird and I probably have to attribute it to total confusion on my part. But this time it is truly fixed.

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