Make more things decided at game start
issueid=4155 12-10-2015 07:58 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Stingray1: 97
Make more things decided at game start

Now that savescumming is officially sanctioned in the Deluxe version I suggest that more outcomes be decided at character creation.

Things that come to mind are pre- and post crowning gifts; greater vault layout, type and artifacts contained within; pool drinking results and shop contents.

If you can think of others, please post about them.

Pardon if this is a duplicate.
Issue Details
Issue Number 4155
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All Steam Versions
Status Rejected
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version ADOM r64 (v2.0.3)
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 1
Votes against this feature 11
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-10-2015 08:37 AM
Ancient Member
I wonder what is the actual added value of this RFE?
How does it make the game better?
For the people that don't savescum this would be a neutral change since they already take the first rng outcome while savescummers would be hurt somewhat because this would defeat the purpose of savescumming.
If the option is actually there, I think everything that comes with it should stay, it's already reflected in the score, isn't it?
What other purpose of reloading a saved game if not to change the undesirable outcome of a random action?
I don't see the need to further tweak this.

If anything, I'd go another route - make the range of attribute values at character creation much narrower to make rerolls pointless.
Currently re-rolling works to eliminate border cases like 5 Le on elven chars or 10 strength on orcs.
If the possible ranges for initial attributes were tighter, to remove such a vast variance, this would serve to effectively render re-rolling obsolete, other than for the purpose of starting with different books/scrolls/potions etc.

12-10-2015 09:40 AM
Ancient Member
Because giving the player an option to savescum for these things in story mode might give them the idea to do it in normal mode. Then normal mode is not normal.

Edit - wrt your off-topic suggestion: I enjoy playing with those 'abnormal' characters also. If your suggestion gets implemented I won't be getting such characters anymore. :(

12-10-2015 03:09 PM
Ancient Member
I know people are playing with those kinds of chars, hence it's not a standalone RFE and instead just a stray thought.
As for the savescumming, it's gonna be there no matter what you do.
Forcing the game to make a selection upon character creation won't change that, there will always be plenty of food for savescummers, like pools for example.
I can't imagine how the outcomes of sipping from every random or guaranteed pool would be static and decided at game start.

Also fixed artifacts in a vaults would require the game to remove those artifacts from the possible pool of drops before mentioned vaults are found and/or cleared.
That means players that die before they find the vault or simply ignore it, will be penalized with the absence of artifacts that are reserved for those vaults.
Fixing the layout or the monster type also doesn't add anything since there's abundance of items/features (colds spells, humanoid slayers) that make almost every vault relatively easy, except for GUVs perhaps.

I don't think any ideas that aim at reducing savescumming options are good - they wall always fall flat since there's always something to scum.

12-10-2015 03:33 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I know people are playing with those kinds of chars, hence it's not a standalone RFE and instead just a stray thought.
As for the savescumming, it's gonna be there no matter what you do.
Forcing the game to make a selection upon character creation won't change that, there will always be plenty of food for savescummers, like pools for example.
I can't imagine how the outcomes of sipping from every random or guaranteed pool would be static and decided at game start.
For pools you could generate a random seed at game start, and any time you drank from a pool you use a random number from that seed sequence. That works assuming that all pools are equal, and that mysterious things like eye color vs . pool color don't actually matter.


Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
Also fixed artifacts in a vaults would require the game to remove those artifacts from the possible pool of drops before mentioned vaults are found and/or cleared.
That means players that die before they find the vault or simply ignore it, will be penalized with the absence of artifacts that are reserved for those vaults.
Fixing the layout or the monster type also doesn't add anything since there's abundance of items/features (colds spells, humanoid slayers) that make almost every vault relatively easy, except for GUVs perhaps.
You could let the artifact drop normally prior to the player discovering the vault. If it does, that artifact could be replaced by gold (as is common in vaults)
If the player enters the floor with the vault but ignores it, the artifact is locked out the same way it already is - it exists on the floor in the vault and can no longer drop. That's not unique to this RFE.

Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I don't think any ideas that aim at reducing savescumming options are good - they wall always fall flat since there's always something to scum.
Certain things are scummier than others. I could totally see someone scumming for pool intrinsics/wishes, as the time to scum vs. benefit is high.

Note that this still won't eliminate it - the player will try the pools, see that he didn't get a wish, look at intrinsics, and decide whether to reload or not. But it does reduce the advantage from doing it.
Other games (XCOM: Enemy Unknown) have done this sort of thing to discourage reloading on every failed shot, and it does seem to help somewhat.

Whether that makes this a feature *worth* doing is separate, but this feature does have some value.

12-10-2015 03:47 PM
Ancient Member
I think it would be too much trouble with few benefits.

12-10-2015 05:05 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Big no-no-no to this one!

I played games which predetermine things beforehand but have legitimate option to save and load as much as needed. The same shit. No, even worse.
1) Now when you can check what will be the next random roll, you can load and take another more appropriate action.
2) If you're disappointed by rolls but you want to savescum the only option is to restart the whole game.

@Stingray1, but is this relevant for you? Do you actually savescum?
I see only one application through the normal play: when it crashes and loads from backup. I'd rather replay with new rolls and accept losing all the things than went again through the same rolls.

There is no way to make savescumming worse or better or to prevent it completely. It can be either hard and inconvenient or easy and legitimate.

12-10-2015 05:45 PM
Ancient Member
I think it should be decided on case-by-case basis.

Since we already have crowning gifts fixed, it would make sense to have precrowns/postcrowns and GV artifacts fixed. GV layouts and guardians - sure, why not.

Pool sips and shop items - seems tad too much. Additionally, I do believe pool internal specifics will clash with seeded sequences since there are prerequisites to some outcomes (like no dooming for wish).

The person who needs to decide his stance on savescumming is Thomas. Previously, ADOM was mostly singleplayer. With global scoreboards savescumming techniques are a legitimate issue for competitive Steam players.

I couldn't care less about it, but the bigger player base might. ADOM HoF database was moderated even back then.

12-11-2015 03:54 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
global scoreboards
I wonder how cheat engine factors into this.
For all I know or care, this single tool potentially has a massive impact on highscores and it's inevitable that people will use it to get the best score.
It dwarfs any savescumming by a vast margin.
Short of placing the entire game and save files on a dedicated server and only passing keypresses from users, there is no other way to prevent cheating and bloated scores.
Of course a lot of people will have a lot of legitimate wins and that's fine but I can guarantee that the top will be occupied by cheaters.

12-27-2015 09:48 AM
The Creator
I dislike this as it would remove flexibility when determining levels later on - as other actions in the game might have effect on level content or layout. Also several things are predetermined at the start of a game.

12-27-2015 04:39 PM
Ancient Member
Long live the savescummers!

What I would have done is create a randomized list of all the artifacts at game start and then simply generate artifacts in order from that list as they are needed, except of course for the crowning artifact which is set at start. Same can be done for poolsips and shop contents.

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