Chaos knights can't pay for items
issueid=6080 03-02-2018 09:06 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Grond: 971
Chaos knights can't pay for items

It isn't possible for chaos knights to buy items from shops. Neither pressing $ nor 'C'hatting with the shopkeeper work.
Issue Details
Issue Number 6080
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 10 (Steam)
Status Unconfirmed
Priority 2
Affected Version ADOM 3.1.1
Fixed Version (none)
Milestone Important Bugfixes
Users able to reproduce bug 1
Users unable to reproduce bug 0
Assigned Users adom-admin
Tags (none)




03-03-2018 09:47 AM
The Creator
Actually this is a consequence of fixing http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=6048 and was the originally intended behavior. Chaos Knights are not welcomed by shopkeepers.

03-03-2018 10:27 AM
Junior Member
So yet more limitations to what CKs can do. Merchants are greedy bastards, they should not care about what their customer is, as long as they can pump a metric buttload of cash out of them.

With all these limitations, CKs are a pretty damn dull class :(

03-03-2018 11:21 AM
The Creator
Please gather some more opinions and I might change my opinion. But CKs were meant to be shunned outsiders.

03-03-2018 04:29 PM
Junior Member
There's some discussion and suggestions available in issue 5446.

03-03-2018 04:38 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by adom-admin
Actually this is a consequence of fixing http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=6048 and was the originally intended behavior. Chaos Knights are not welcomed by shopkeepers.
In that case you should probably change what shopkeepers say when CKs enter ("pick up any of my wares from the ground, inspect them, then pay if you are convinced").

As far as gameplay goes I'm not sure it's such a good idea. Just getting food starting out becomes a problem, since ratling traders won't sell to them either. And it's another incentive for the lame-but-optimal temporary alignment switch to neutral.

03-03-2018 05:11 PM
Junior Member
Gonna have to agree with Grond here. Taking away an important part of the game for a class is not good design.

03-03-2018 05:55 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Jarinex
Gonna have to agree with Grond here. Taking away an important part of the game for a class is not good design.
I disagree with this :p

Taking away important parts of the game is a great way to make races and classes distinct (e.g. mist elf iron allergy, beastfighter weapon ineptitude, mindcrafter book learning ineptitude, etc). I think chaos knight would be a more interesting class if most NPCs treated them like dirt at any alignment (which would take away a lot of stuff).

03-03-2018 08:58 PM
Junior Member
Lol I must have misunderstood what’s you said then :p. Either way, I don’t like the idea of limiting CKs like that. In the examples you mentioned, they can all still buy items and do normal quests as usual. CKs don’t have that, and limiting them further doesn’t sound fun (at least to me).

03-03-2018 11:18 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Jarinex
Lol I must have misunderstood what’s you said then :p. Either way, I don’t like the idea of limiting CKs like that. In the examples you mentioned, they can all still buy items and do normal quests as usual. CKs don’t have that, and limiting them further doesn’t sound fun (at least to me).
But now you're ignoring the point of Grond's comment. Yes, those classes can buy items, but they can not do some other things. You could argue about the magnitude of the restrictions, but "they can all still buy items" is not an argument here: the point being that race/class-specific restrictions are present in other cases too, and they add to the feel, the playstyle of the class.

On another note, making some shopkeepers randomly unscrupulous and willing to "deal with the devil" might be good, but it could be hard to implement as it would require adding an additional parameter to specific NPCs, and ADOM's data structures may or may not make that easy. (There's no real way, save scumming excepted, to generate shops ad infinitum as far as I know, so this would not make CKs farm for friendly shopkeepers. A usable shop would just be a randomly occurring nice bonus, a place to generate some gold to sacrifice, or get some items that may or may not be actually useful -- without fighting a shopkeeper, that is.)

03-03-2018 11:58 PM
Junior Member
I would believe that Jarinex's point is the same as mine, that the CK restrictions are simply too brutal and forcing a linear gameplay. Killing off all shopkeeper interaction just adds insult to injury there.

For example, them starting at C-, with cripplingly arduous effort to get to C, sacrificing at a nonaligned altar, just to qualify for precrowning, a rather essential concept in early game. Seriously, what's the logic in that?

03-04-2018 02:26 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Taederias
But now you're ignoring the point of Grond's comment. Yes, those classes can buy items, but they can not do some other things. You could argue about the magnitude of the restrictions, but "they can all still buy items" is not an argument here: the point being that race/class-specific restrictions are present in other cases too, and they add to the feel, the playstyle of the class.
The three examples stated (mist elf, beastfighter, and mindcrafter) are fine as playstyles. Taking away one of the uses for gold (besides saccing) is not.

I would be fine with the idea of CK's having to pay more money, but I disagree to limit CK's like this. They are already limited in what they can do as is.

That or have some special things for them to do, as Harkila's RFE has mentioned.

03-04-2018 02:40 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Jarinex
The three examples stated (mist elf, beastfighter, and mindcrafter) are fine as playstyles. Taking away one of the uses for gold (besides saccing) is not.
Why gold is more important for gameplay than melee weapons or learning spells?

CK get really good starting gear to compensate for some inconvenience. Not the best trade off but it's not like someone is forced to play them if they do not like their limitations.

IMHO, what does not make any sort of sense is amount of bonus they get from switching to other alignment. Well, some sort of food source would be nice too, since now the best they can do is probably scum for stoma on a herb level.

03-04-2018 02:51 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Harkila
I would believe that Jarinex's point is the same as mine, that the CK restrictions are simply too brutal and forcing a linear gameplay. Killing off all shopkeeper interaction just adds insult to injury there.
There's still stealing from and murdering the shopkeeper, which seems pretty thematic for CK. They can even start out with teleportitis and use it for this purpose. If CK had some kind of way to deal with hunger (e.g. can't go hungry while chaotic, or can buy from ratling traders), I wouldn't have any problem with this change.

Quote Originally Posted by Harkila
For example, them starting at C-, with cripplingly arduous effort to get to C, sacrificing at a nonaligned altar, just to qualify for precrowning, a rather essential concept in early game. Seriously, what's the logic in that?
So crown instead, and get one of the incredibly strong CK-exclusive gifts? Can postcrown if you absolutely must have a random artifact.

03-04-2018 09:33 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Grond
So crown instead, and get one of the incredibly strong CK-exclusive gifts? Can postcrown if you absolutely must have a random artifact.
Of course you can do that. That's not the point. Likewise you can do the precrowning as I described.

The point is that it's not thematic. Precrownings are not a lawful thing, likewise CKs aren't in any worse standing with their own god than anyone else. And if the ideal way to play is to grindly sac at a nonaligned altar, that just feels dumb.

03-04-2018 11:49 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Grond
There's still stealing from and murdering the shopkeeper, which seems pretty thematic for CK. They can even start out with teleportitis and use it for this purpose.
Precisely. Treating "shopkeepers won't trade with CKs" as if they don't have access to shop stocks is an exaggeration. Actually, this adds a fundamentally different aspect to CK gameplay, because with other classes you generally want to avoid fighting shopkeepers. Granted, if you can't get away without angering/murdering the shopkeeper you won't get shop restocks, but this can still be avoided in multiple ways.

03-04-2018 03:00 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
I also support Grond, and thematically it really makes more sense to steal or than just buy. But one thing really concerns me. Why * Barnabas cares? He's holding a black market in trieves village. How did he really ended up hating them???

Of the topic. I would consider playing CKs if they really possessed some unique feature, for example if they could control some their corruptions allowing them to activate them manually and reducing likelihood of random activation, if they could choose, say, one of 2-3 corruptions instead of gaining random one, if they could get more out of them and suffer less drawback, if some chaos spans were friendly / tamed (e.g. ones CK themselves turns to WMoPCs) or even they could simply never die out of corruption allowing them to play as much as they want with all their burden... I'd definitely stick to this class for a long time with unique feeling I'm now getting only while playing ME mindcrafters. I won't worry at all about all the NPCs and restrictions if they were that unique. Sandly somehow none of these idea where supported by community, not sure why...

04-19-2018 06:49 PM
Junior Member
Im playing CK only for some time, very interesting class for me, and if it was
the originally intended behavior
its make sense,becasue im never pay to these blasted merchants, and i take what i want. AFAIK N CK can sell and buy stuff.

04-20-2018 10:09 AM
Ancient Member
I think the principle of shunned outsider is ok but in case of Barnabas, like somebody already said, he's running a black market, his prices are inflated and I think it's quite clear he's not an honest, good merchant in a peaceful town.
More a greedy kind of fence or other peddler of stolen goods, in a shady town full of bandits, muggers, thieves and assassins, only interested in making gold.
He doesn't care where it comes from, will readily buy or sell corpses of bandits and whatever belongings they drop after the PC kills them.
Granted, other shopkeepers don't mind that either but for the sake of argument, I'm pointing out that alignment seems to be of zero relevance here, all that matters is profit.
It would be thematically proper if CKs could trade with this single merchant and nobody else.

04-21-2018 02:50 PM
Junior Member
Maybie Holtz can add some shop access reward after killing sheriff/elder? Im think criminals dont like to mess with some wierd mutated ChAoS looking things, and try avoid it. Its much easier to do some shady deals with ordinary humanoids, they can read em. Chaos biengs can be unpridicteable and dangerous.imho

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