Reduce the real-world time to create new characters
issueid=2766 03-21-2014 11:52 AM
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by Waladil: 7
Reduce the real-world time to create new characters

So I'm trying to get back into ADOM after a long absence, and although I've played other roguelikes in the meantime, I'm still far behind most of the "active" "hardcore" playerbase in terms of skill level.

That means I die.

A lot.

But I'd like to win. In order to improve my probability of winning, it's perfectly rational for me to attempt to get an optimal character start. However, getting an even vaguely optimal start is friggin' time consuming. Which of course makes me a lot more bored and less likely to play the game (which is bad).

First element of an optimal start: Get the star sign I want. There's roughly a 1:12 chance for this. Each time I fail that 1:12 chance, I have to press space f f space r a a a enter Q y space space r. (Number of 'a's varies depending on how many talents the random character gets.) Okay, so we're dealing with a thirteen-keystroke re-roll. And I'll have to reroll about 12 times to get whatever star sign I want at the time. So we're talking appr. 156 keystrokes in order to get my star sign. More because I'll typically get bored with the constant re-rolling and start mashing random keys. And don't even get me STARTED on what happens if I accidentally press 'f' after getting my star sign!

Second element of an optimal start: The question system. Have ADOM open, have guidebook w/ attribute changes open, look at question, ctrl-f for a keyword, make choice purely on attribute changes. Again, it's quite boring but the benefit is way too large to ignore.

Third element of an optimal start: Gear. Most classes this doesn't particularly matter for, but starting a wizard with only an elemental bolt book and a slightly useful utility spell (like 'light') is quite intimidating.

Fourth element of an optimal start: The first kill. I'm probably nowhere near ready for an ultimate ending (yup I'm spoiled by wiki and guidebook), but I'd like to keep the option open... so it's off to bad-town to murder an outlaw (I _think_ they're a good pick for first kill? Potential to do both Filk and Old Barbarian?)

Fifth element of an optimal start: The early nice-guy quests. I'm an incorrigible quester, and I hate the feeling of leaving quests undone. However, the early game throws tons of mutually exclusive quests at us (some of which don't make any sense as to their mutual exclusivity). I have found a way to save the puppy and kill Kranach without being incredibly lucky or a troll, though: After getting the first kill, get both quests and proceed directly to the Puppy Cave. Go straight to the final floor and turn around to return to the surface. Do not rescue the puppy (unless it happens to be in the first room). Leave the puppy cave at level 4 or 5, then chill around the wilderness to kill Kranach. Then return to the puppy cave, clear it from top to dl:5, find the puppy on 6 and park it somewhere safe (probably just up a floor), then finish clearing 6. Return with puppy, everyone's happy! This plan can go wrong IN SO MANY WAYS.



So after all that, a character's now finally out of "the start-game." Still firmly planted in the early game, of course. But you're level 8 or so, got some quests done, got some cash, et cetera. At this point the game opens up and allows the player to actually decide stuff rather than trying to do too much too quickly.

I categorized this into feature, right? Don't worry, here come the actual suggestions for how to alleviate this painful process I described above:

1. Allow players to choose their star sign. As the wiki notes, they are reasonably balanced and there's room for debate as to whether one's "better" than others. Also include a "random" button for people who truly desire to get a random star sign. In addition, put a note in the character log of people who chose random star signs -- for challenges and bragging rights and et cetera that might require random star signs. While I understand that many of the hardcore players might not really care what class they play and will choose race+class based on their star sign, it's much much simpler for newer players to focus heavily on getting through the game with ONE class. And let's be honest with ourselves -- wizards just don't get that much of a benefit from the Sword sign.
1a. As a side aspect of the above, move special birth events (two-headed calf, long lost brother showing up, etc) to a later point in the character creation process -- I'd suggest wherever the player first sees their starting stats. If they're going to startscum, they'll do it based on stats & special birth events.
2. Instead of the question system, give players 5-25 (depending on balance! This is a big range because I'm not sure what the best number for balance would be) stat "moves" to move a point from one stat to another, probably with a max +/- of 5(ish, again mod for balance) to any one stat.
3. If one aboslutely insists on the question system, at least let us see our stats before/during it. There's some fairly important breakpoints to aim for: 10/20/25 PE, 15/20/25 LE, 18 MA. Sure would be annoying to lose out on an entire talent because you took a hit to mana on the very last question figuring that you'd have enough to get the talent.
4. Move Kranach to a fixed location. I've had characters jerk around in the wilderness for almost two months before finding that brasshole. At that point the character is _going_ to shoot right past the 90 day limit and are almost certainly going to die to corruption... because they spent too much time on a level 5 quest. Just give him a friggin' raider camp between Terinyo and bad-town where the player can assault his camp. (Also leave in the random encounter and make the camp-assault more difficult than the random encounter, unless you pass a stealth check and sneak up on the camp. Extra guards and sentries and all that.)
5. Add a "restart this character" option to the death screen. That option would reset the ENTIRE GAME and you start off with the exact same character you started with originally. No items/exp/identification/piety would move over, dungeons rerolled, everything. The only stuff kept is the character creation screens. At least that way if you spent two hours scumming the optimal starting character (right star sign, long lost brother, great question options, and brilliant stat arrangements AND the rare extra talent. Something like that.), then walked into a dungeon and died to headbrick, you wouldn't want to headbrick yourself in RL. (Savegames would need to include a base save, but that's relatively small compared to late-game saves. Shouldn't be a big deal.)

You may notice that not all of my starting difficulties have matching suggestions. That's because I'm only suggesting the most egregious, painful aspects get modified. Some startscumming is always going to happen in any game with random starting variables, but making it take two hours to get "a reasonably satisfying start" is simply ludicrous. Note that most don't nerf scumming per se -- you can still scum for special birth effects and random stats -- but instead remove the more stupid causes of scumming.

I would rate this to be high priority because -- for me -- it's absolutely game-killing. Every character death I have an internal conflict between my desire to get better at ADOM and my absolute disgust for the massive amount of keywhacking I have to do... to restart.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2766
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 4
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Implemented Version ADOM r65 (v2.1.0)
Milestone "Resurrect ADOM" Indiegogo Fulfillment
Votes for this feature 1
Votes against this feature 11
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




03-22-2014 10:35 AM
Ancient Member
The impression I got with the starsign being chosen first was so that a player can then choose his R/C based on the starsign. In order that a player doesn't get stuck playing the same R/C more-or-less every game.

There was a lot of text in this RFE, so pardon if I did not read all of it, but iirc lesser vault locations are also determined at character creation.

I thought I'd share this read. You know what is the most fun for me, rolling random and playing for a win. Then you don't have to worry about wasting time to start with a good character and you learn to become a good player from learning to not die through repeated deaths with different random characters.

ADOM is a difficult game, you are bound to fail many times before you win. There is no way around this, even if you only play maxed attributed characters. You will only succeed through persistence and a lot of it. I believe firmly your time investment will be reduced significantly if you simply play with whatever character is rolled and die and roll the next character and play until its death, but really try hard to not die.

12-26-2015 04:47 PM
The Creator
I'll read all this when we are going to rewrite the whole character generation process :-)

01-06-2016 08:50 PM
The Creator
Just as a summary: There are way too many disparate ideas in the ticket. We can't and won't handle that within one ticket. For the time being I just finished the new character generation process starting being available with ADOM R65. It addresses many of your wishes (but not all).

I'm totally not willing to change the exclusivity of quests and similar things as that's part of the challenge. You will have to make decisions and those decisions have consequences. For other topics please create separate issues after trying out the new character generation process one you have tested it.

As parts of your wishes have been fulfilled I'll mark the ticket as 'implemented'. Although only parts have been implemented.

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