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Thread: Why do people fall for jerks?

  1. #61
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    Rainbow Ponies!! Candy mountain!! Wheeheee!!!

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble View Post
    The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is an unevitable result of capitalism. It's just what happens when you have a free market. Wealth allows long-term investments, resulting in more wealth. Poverty means you can't make long-term investments (in a very broad sense), meaning your situation is likely to become even worse in the future. Fortunately, governments sometimes redistribute some wealth back to the poor, but the situation remains far from perfect. It hasn't really got to do with self-confidence.
    This is based on the wrong assumption (marx) that the economic resources are limited, which they are not. On a free market both poor and rich get richer, the poor get richer faster than the rich. A more free market has correlation and causality with higher growth and higher growth has both correlation and causality with less poverty, better health and better welfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble View Post
    Good one Boris.

    I didn't want to advocate communism. I was just pointing out drawbacks of a total lasser-faire policy, where the free market goes completely unchecked. I'm well aware that the communist regimes we've seen weren't exactly utopia.

    Gut, you're confirming my prejudices about Americans here: as soon as you say something mildly socialist, they start about how you can never trust any government and call you a communist..
    Looking at the above, your view on the economy is very similiar of that of a communist.

  3. #63
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    > the wrong assumption (marx) that the economic resources are limited, which they are not
    If I take this literally, this is clearly wrong. If economic resources weren't limited, everybody would be infinitely wealthy and we would all have all the luxury available that we could ever want.

    But I have the feeling you mean something more subtle than that, could you please explain?

    > Looking at the above, your view on the economy is very similiar of that of a communist.

    In my view, a free market will not automatically lead to a good or fair distribution of wealth. On the contrary. That's a problem with capitalism. You do not get paid what you deserve; you get paid as much as your product happens to be in fashion. Many of the dirtiest (and direly needed) jobs like nurse, cleaner etc are underpaid while moviestars are drowning in money for being pretty. You get ill? Not enough money to pay the doctor? Bad luck, you die. That's raw capitalism, and that's why I'm against it.

    However, I admit that capitalism has advantages. It stimulates initiative.

    So I am critical of the free market, yes. It is not a magical solution to everything, as some seem to be thinking. But communism entails far, far more than that. Communism is a very radical system and I do not believe it to be any better than unrestricted capitalism. In my opinion, a compromise is best.
    You steal a scroll labelled HITME. The orc hits you.

  4. #64
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    > the poor get richer faster than the rich.

    please tell me that was a joke. The only way a minimum wage worker
    can remain alive in America right now is due to social programs. Read,
    socialism. It is annoying to a guy like myself, who is turned off by
    socialism, that without it, working Americans would starve. How much
    easier and more wise to pay a living wage in the first place?

    > your view on the economy is very similiar of that of a communist.

    I didn't read his post that way. My definition of communism is 'equal
    distribution of wealth'.
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

  5. #65
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    See, Boris? You start talking about ponies and other start talking about politics! I blame you for all that economics/politics offtopic talk

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble View Post
    If I take this literally, this is clearly wrong. If economic resources weren't limited, everybody would be infinitely wealthy and we would all have all the luxury available that we could ever want.

    But I have the feeling you mean something more subtle than that, could you please explain?
    Actually even if you take it literally its non sequitur. What I mean is we do not have a set amount of wealth. Just because one person becomes richer doesn't mean another one have to become poorer.

    Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble View Post
    In my view, a free market will not automatically lead to a good or fair distribution of wealth. On the contrary. That's a problem with capitalism. You do not get paid what you deserve; you get paid as much as your product happens to be in fashion. Many of the dirtiest (and direly needed) jobs like nurse, cleaner etc are underpaid while moviestars are drowning in money for being pretty. You get ill? Not enough money to pay the doctor? Bad luck, you die. That's raw capitalism, and that's why I'm against it.

    However, I admit that capitalism has advantages. It stimulates initiative.

    So I am critical of the free market, yes. It is not a magical solution to everything, as some seem to be thinking. But communism entails far, far more than that. Communism is a very radical system and I do not believe it to be any better than unrestricted capitalism. In my opinion, a compromise is best.
    What is a fair distribution of wealth? Is equal distribution of wealth a self objective? How do one decide which jobs deserve how much pay and who decides that(apparently you from what you write)? The state does not have monopoly on the word welfare so no capitalism does not kill people that are sick. It is merely an economic system where people own the capital and the factors of production instead of the state.

    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    please tell me that was a joke. The only way a minimum wage worker
    can remain alive in America right now is due to social programs. Read,
    socialism. It is annoying to a guy like myself, who is turned off by
    socialism, that without it, working Americans would starve. How much
    easier and more wise to pay a living wage in the first place?
    What does America have to do with a free economy?

  7. #67
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    First off, I realize this is all extremely off-topic (and possibly boring and annoying at the same time). But hey, feel free to ignore the discussion and talk about something else.

    > Just because one person becomes richer doesn't mean another one have to become poorer.
    True, but that's not what I said. What I said is that a poor person has little options to invest in his future in whatever way, which means it is likely he becomes even poorer (or at least makes it hard to improve his situation). And that this works the other way around for rich people.

    > What is a fair distribution of wealth?
    Very difficult question and of course it does not have an objective answer. At least I'd say it is desirable to avoid extreme unfairness, where some people work hard and are still at risk of starvation, while others can sit back and enjoy free lunch. Which is, on a global scale, what we see in the real world.

    > It is merely an economic system where people own the capital and the factors of
    > production instead of the state.
    Perhaps I should use another word instead of capitalism. What I mean is the belief that a free market will automatically bring welfare to everyone and that any interference with it must be avoided. Neoliberalism?
    You steal a scroll labelled HITME. The orc hits you.

  8. #68
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    > What is a fair distribution of wealth?

    Ok first of all we should get rid of all economic exchanges (I mean everything that is somehow involved with actions, obligations, valued papers and even money themself)
    than we should make a labour price list of hour values.
    different professions will have different hour values of labour.
    Professions like bankirs, brokers or economist shoud be forbidden as well as free trade itself.
    There should be a maximum limit of hours you can collect per year, so you cannot become richer than anyone
    and also cannot spent more than some reasonable time not working. For example you can collect upper limit of labour hours working hard cleaning trash all the year, and then you have to rest for a couple (may be 3 or 4 not more) of months because your labour hours will vanish if you will not spend them.
    the more difficult your work is - the less time you have to work to reach your limit and to have your rest.
    and of course food will cost very little amount of labour time, and all cost should be managed by the goverment (which I will lead of course)

    Edit:The Idea of this is taken from Harry Harryson`s "Steel Rat"
    Last edited by boris_pankov@inbox.ru; 05-14-2010 at 02:33 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irinka View Post
    See, Boris? You start talking about ponies and other start talking about politics! I blame you for all that economics/politics offtopic talk
    he's just trying to be a jerk, and hoped that someone fall for him.

  10. #70
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    > he's just trying to be a jerk, and hoped that someone fall for him.

    First I wanted to write a refutation but than I understood that you re getting back to the topic of a thread!
    Good job Yisk!

    P.S. Ну в конце концов, зачем мне чтобы на меня ко-то западал? Я старый больной человек!

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