comment on the mindcrafter guide: getting moar out of mindcraft

[grobblewobble]

When reading YAVP mindcrafter posts, you often hear statements like "mindcraft wasn't very useful", "it was boring because I couldn't use mindcraft on the monsters I wanted to use it on", "I never used mindcraft past the tower", etc. This is confirmed in the mindcrafter guide by lich. Simply put, the guide states that mind blast and the likes are too expensive, while mind wave and greater mental wave are of little help because you should not let yourself be surrounded.

I'll be bold and say those people are all wrong. Mindcraft is underrated.

Yes, mind blasts are rather inefficient, mana wise. And yes, you should not expect or try to kill the majority of all monsters with it, you're not a spellcaster and it doesn't gain you weapon marks. But here is the good part:

a) with mindcraft you can attack monsters through walls
b) with eyes of the mind you can see monsters on the other side of walls

Together, mindcraft is another method to kill monsters that would normally be way out of your league, just like darkness and invisibility. They are behind a wall and completely helpless. This works especially well when they are behind a path that is blocked by a hidden door. Some monsters can smash doors, but none can find a hidden door.

And once you get to level 30, greater telekinetic blast adds yet another method to your arsenal. GTB is the best attack in the game IMO. It basically lets you kill any particular monster within your field of vision (blessed necklace of the eye is your friend). Again, you can easily take on monsters that would normally be way out of your league, especially when you are protected by meatshields.

I've recently had a level 22 mindcrafter reach level 50 very quickly after finding a greater red dragon vault, as detailed here.

The only caveat is that a nasty bug can crash the game if you try mindblast on corrupting monsters. Luckily, confusing them is safe. Well, you get a little bit of corruption of course, but imo the amount of corruption is so small that it's not really an issue, as long as you're not using it against every chaos rat.

[Gheist]

I've recently had a level 22 mindcrafter reach level 50 very quickly after finding a greater red dragon vault, [url="http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?p=48865&posted=1#post48865"]as detailed here[/url

I never get cool vaults like that.. I always get shite vaults.. Best I got thus far was a greater vault that contained THREE artifacts (Whirlwind, emerald dagger (WOOT! Fave artifact!), and Iron Fist - excellent vault). Got the 'extremely excited' message, so I instantly uses a blessed magic mapping scroll (as based on my observations, most 'greater vaults' that contain artifacts, will have most (all the ones that aren't generated by luck, from kills) on the floor, so I could see where they were - at least initially, before the monsters picked them up.

What was my lovely target in this greater vault? Bloody Ogres.. I had absolute crap to look forward to as far as drops go, unless I wanted to constantly lure very small groups out and pickpocket them each before slaughtering them. Which I had no intention of doing, beings as I was playing an extremely sadistic necro, fond of using farsight+eye ammies to see very far ahead, teleporting into small 'pockets' in huge groups of monsters, and using (very high level - lvl 53+) acid ball to deal massive damage extremely quickly, followed by mass raising the typically large number of corpses within LoS afterwards (typically ghuls, as the paralysis attack is more useful) to deal with any thing else that may be lurking around.. If that didn't work, the fact that luck was on her side when she killed a quickling queen (got a corpse!) and raised it to be a powerhouse of a lich (1301 speed, based on what it said about that queen I killed for it - as I'd only killed the one, at that point), typically managed to get any job I couldn't handle done quickly, while I sat back and essentially twiddled my thumbs (ended up, just to test her prowess out, using a RoDS to summon an AKW.. She solo'd it, lighted, and only lost about 55-65 health. I was shocked).

I've gotten an orc one also. Equally as boring, and again only yielded an artifact of low importance as the reward - again, Whirlwind. As well as a gnoll greater vault, latticed with a ton of hyenas around the borders..

Most of the ones I get are humanoid, which is good, if I'm using a necro (or my new thief, if I continue the luck streak and keep getting vaults that all can't detect invisible). But, they all lack flare, and, most lack any decent rewards aside from the at least single assured artifact drop that comes with a greater vault.

Though its probably suicidal to hope for, for any character combo, I'm actually wanting to get a greater vault that's filled with constructs.. (Except crystal..they're one hell of a bitch to deal with for me, regardless of what I'm using). If I win, bragging rights. If I die...probably still bragging rights, unless I get pwnt almost instantly for being a tard. But, even that'd be cool. I'd love a dragon vault also, considering that they have a higher chance than anything else to produce an artifact on death..so, each kill is another chance for an arty..

XD



Mindcrafters actually lack the means to learn spells, though? Even if a book is found? I could have sworn I started one about a week ago, and she even started with a spellbook.. Could be wrong though.. Due to terrible luck, I don't think I had more than a couple characters make it past level twelve.. Many, died in the wilderness, just trying to get to VD, SC, ID, or even Lawin.. Bandits and packs of jackals can pwn a lvl 1 quick, especially if they haven't picked up anything at all, aside from maybe an extra 'just in case' ration. =/

[Pumpernickel]

When reading YAVP mindcrafter posts, you often hear statements like "mindcraft wasn't very useful", "it was boring because I couldn't use mindcraft on the monsters I wanted to use it on", "I never used mindcraft past the tower", etc.

My experience of a mindcrafter who didn't use mindcraft _at all_ was that it plays pretty much like a fighter, just with a concentration skill you have no urgent need for (just like a fighter has +% AC boni on worn armour that serve little purpose - and _three_ of their class powers are wasted on this low-priority bonus).

Simply put, the guide states that mind blast and the likes are too expensive, while mind wave and greater mental wave are of little help because you should not let yourself be surrounded.

I'll be bold and say those people are all wrong.

Too true. Mental wave is of little help not because of surrounding, but because it's a _bloody retirement gift_. You get it at level 50, right? The only way to get past 40-45 before entering D:50 on a simple gate-closer is by lucking out in the greater vaults department.

Mindcraft is underrated.

Yeah, that too. I tend to rant over how Mindcraft is junk, but mainly because it's just so annoyingly bland and low-powered _compared to spell magic_. In the damage department, there's nothing Mindcraft can do that spell magic can't do much, much better. Mindcraft has two tricks Magic can't do (as effectively): Confusion and Monster Detection. As far as damage goes, i prefer bookcasted Magic Missiles to Mind Blast. At worst similar "shrugging" rates, no total-immunes, no backlash, comparable damage per monster hit, but a lot slower.

If spell magic weren't so sickeningly overpowered, Mindcraft would actually be quite nice even for blowing shit up.

And once you get to level 30, greater telekinetic blast adds yet another method to your arsenal.

I guess i just got a bad sample on my last mindcrafting Mindcrafter: it was one of the slow-levelling species, so it took forever before i got this ability. By the time Greater Telekinetic Blast rolled around i was near the Mana Temple, and i had enough experience bashing up big single foes that i just kept at it. I got some good mileage out of Mental Wave in Dragon lesser vaults, though, and without invisibility.

[lotuskip]

GTB makes summoners, as well as bosses that like to hang around summoners (like the chaos archmage), a nonissue. Never have I felt more accomplished (when it comes to playing ADOM, at least), than after clearing the mana temple with a mindcrafter: first dispose the eyes before they can drain anything (eyes of the mind + well placed mind blasts), then GTB anything that summons or carries a chaos orb (carry several torches to make this more efficient). Beat or shoot to pulp anything that remains.

[grobblewobble]

Mental wave is of little help not because of surrounding, but because it's a _bloody retirement gift_.

Yes, true. However, mind wave is very similar and you get it much earlier.

As far as damage goes, i prefer bookcasted Magic Missiles to Mind Blast.

Of course. Please note, I'm not advocating mind blast as a regular damage spell, like Magic Missile, because Magic Missile is obviously better for that purpose. But the point of mind blast is: it penetrates walls. That makes it very nifty in some (limited) situations, especially when you're fighting an out-of-depth opponent.

Now I know that ball spells penetrate walls, too, but they don't penetrate as deeply. Here is an example where mindcraft shines. This actually happened in my mindcrafter game.

.....@....
##########
##########
##########
.+HHHHHHH#
##HHHHHHH#
##HHOHHHH#
##HHHHOHH#
##HHHHHHH#
##########

You can fry their minds with 0 risk, no matter how overpowered the H's are compared to your character. And you can use your eyes of the mind to check up on the damage.

[JellySlayer]

I've gotten an orc one also. Equally as boring, and again only yielded an artifact of low importance as the reward - again, Whirlwind. As well as a gnoll greater vault, latticed with a ton of hyenas around the borders..

Most of the ones I get are humanoid, which is good, if I'm using a necro (or my new thief, if I continue the luck streak and keep getting vaults that all can't detect invisible). But, they all lack flare, and, most lack any decent rewards aside from the at least single assured artifact drop that comes with a greater vault.

Though its probably suicidal to hope for, for any character combo, I'm actually wanting to get a greater vault that's filled with constructs.. (Except crystal..they're one hell of a bitch to deal with for me, regardless of what I'm using). If I win, bragging rights. If I die...probably still bragging rights, unless I get pwnt almost instantly for being a tard. But, even that'd be cool. I'd love a dragon vault also, considering that they have a higher chance than anything else to produce an artifact on death..so, each kill is another chance for an arty..

Greater vaults can only consist of: ogres and giants, red/blue/white/black/karmic dragons, and undead. They can only appear in the CoC between the wall of flames and D:47. All of the others that you are referring to (gnolls, orcs, etc.) are lesser vaults, which aren't guaranteed to have an artifact.

[Josh]

Greater vaults can only consist of: ogres and giants, red/blue/white/black/karmic dragons, and undead.

Really? Admittedly, it's been a while since I got a character that far, but I could have sworn there are greater vaults containing constructs as well, with Eternium Golems where the Emperor Lich would be if it were an undead vault.

[Lich]

I don't think I ever implied mindcraft isn't useful; it's just very specialized and not as universally applicable as magic. For me, this is the reason why mindcrafters are very interesting to play, because the power of their mindcraft depends a lot on the player's creativity and resourcefulness.
As for taking out red dragon vaults with mind wave, I think I'm just too conservative for that. Those monsters generate with greatly varying levels of power that I don't want to risk it. One of my bards with super smithed protective equipment and serpent's bite had to go off a level to heal twice before managing to take down just a single great red wyrm.

[Gheist]

Greater vaults can only consist of: ogres and giants, red/blue/white/black/karmic dragons, and undead. They can only appear in the CoC between the wall of flames and D:47. All of the others that you are referring to (gnolls, orcs, etc.) are lesser vaults, which aren't guaranteed to have an artifact.

Must have been 'O'gres then.. I just know they were felled a bit overly easy. Poof in, acid ball of death (just once.. as you don't want to risk wasting any of the lovely corpses you just generated..), raise, then sit back and watch the carnage for a few turns, while your MP regens, or if you still have enough MP, teleport again and repeat the process. Merely remembering to try and save enough MP for one 'final teleport' should things get dicey, or you run low on MP (or hp, from the round between teleporting and acid ball - throwing yourself dead in the middle of a pack is dangerous), so you can teleport yourself behind your pet that you have 'w'aiting back at the entrance. Few turns, while the mindless raises go to town, maybe rub some weed on your skin if you got a booboo or two, then send the slave out to tackle the big shots for a bit. Keep tabs on its health, and when it gets low(ish), order it back. By that time, you should have enough built up again for another tele-deathball (or improved fireball, if you have it and its reasonably high powered - though, I'm not keen on that one, beings as it often leaves corpses out of LoS, thus defeating the purpose).

I just didnt' really even need to do that. I never seem to find ogres/orcs all that difficult, after I finally get the character rolling. They just end up being fodder, and occasional extra loot when I'm in a pickpocketting mood.

Then again, I am talking about a character, at least at the moment, that I worked up to be so insanely overpowered that she (a gray elf necro) ended up solo melee'ing a greater titan in the mana temple, not even realizing it till it was nearly dead.

"I wonder what kind of giant this funny green H is.. Its not dying so easy.."
*looks*
".... Shit. I should prolly get the hell away from this bugger. If it actually hits me, its gonna hurt like all hell."
"Wait.. Its almost dead, and the room is practically clear.. Screw it!" *stab stab*


-----------------

Back on subject, though. I guess that's why I don't know so much about mindcrafters. I like to start them, and they seem interesting enough. But, many of the ones I make get clubbed far to easy, far to early.


Oh, and if anyone happens to find a chaos knight, or dwarven chaos knight, figurine..dun dip it in holy water to try and get a better spawn when/if you use it. When I did, the dipping resulted in crashing... Yay.

[Soirana]

Nice imagination, but stop here if you have not seen greater vault, which is clearly the case.