herbs are bad ...

[gut]

I think 13 is prolly average for them, but it doesn't matter.
Base missile damage at xp. lvl 1 is 2d6+12, and that is with
taking the 'treasure hunter line'. They get base 6 PV, 30 - 50
starting ammo, access to mithril skin, and a decent melee
attack to kill weaklings.

You can sprint them straight to the CoC and win the gladius
with no delays, not even healing (as long as you don't mind
using the naming bug/feature for the magi), not even wizards
can do that

Try a no-scum game with one.

[koctyxa]

win the gladius with no delays, not even healing (as long as you don't mind
using the naming bug/feature for the magi)

What's the naming feature?

[vogonpoet]

Just a [useful/cheap] method for finding invisible monsters - try to name an empty-looking square of dungeon. If there is no monster present, it won't let you name it. If there is a monster present, it will ask you for a new name, and you have just found out where your Ogre Mage is currently standing.

[gut]

I'm OK with it because invis is unfair anyway. If I hit them in melee
while I'm invis, it gives away my postition, as it should (blood visible).
On the other hand, if they hit me in melee, they stay perfectly invis.
Frankly, I should be able to hear/smell the location of the stinky fat
thing anyway. I like the idea of the magi turning invis and the PC
tricking it into giving away its position by calling it by name

[Grey]

You can sprint them straight to the CoC and win the gladius
with no delays, not even healing (as long as you don't mind
using the naming bug/feature for the magi), not even wizards
can do that

Well now that sounds like a challenge... Quite an easy challenge if one starts with teleport, to be honest. Why would you want to win the gladius though?

[gut]

Sprint winning the gladius with a wizard is not as easy as you
think. Remember, no BUGWIL. A single stone block can end your
trip at any time. You will almost definitely have only your 2 or 3
starting spells. Perhaps I was remembering only my elf/gnome
wizzies, maybe a drake would fare better.

> Quite an easy challenge if one starts with teleport,

Teleporting the mobs out would be rather easy, yes, but I was
thinking of a non-roll scummed PC. Roll scumming would change
the equation for sure.

> Why would you want to win the gladius though?

1. It is just one of the fun mini-challenges I sometimes like to do.

2. For many PC's, chiefly archers though, it is a fine addition to your
early game equipment. It comes with +7 speed, +3 DV, and +3PV,
making it better than most early game shields.

3. I seldom do dwarf quests anymore anyway, so I'm trading a
valuable piece of early game gear for future benefits I won't bother
to persue.

4. You can trade it for tactics as soon as you find a shield that is
a decent replacement, as opposed to waiting until after you cross
the DH/animated forrest, do griffyard, clear ogre cave, etc...
Surprisingly, it stays far longer than one would think. Giving up
those boni isn't easy.

5. Having a decent melee weapon will save ammo, and that 1d6
starting hand axe will only do so much.

6. I don't precrown anyway, so I'm missing nothing by genning
an extra early art.

7. The extra ~7K in early game cash comes in handy, and you
don't HAVE to stop with the gladius fight. You can usually fight
as long as your ammo holds up.

8. It is trap, rust mob, and jelly proof.

9. You can sac/sell it if you figure piety will help you more than
the tactics skill. Yeah, pretty rare, but it could be that extra little
bit that gets you your early crowning. Getting Farslayer will make
up for the loss.

10. You don't have to shy away from perma invis at your earliest
convenience.

EDIT: would anyone be interested in an arena challenge?

- roll random PC, sprint to arena and see how far you get.

- everyone rolls a dwarf archer, or starts with a community save

- archers vs wizards

[fazisi]

I would do arena challenge game. I used to do that when I was unspoiled on my beastfighters.

[vogonpoet]

The Golden Gladius really is pretty damn decent for an early game weapon. If I am playing duel wielding dark elven rangers for instance, I might pick up the gladius pretty early, and maybe not trade it in for tactics until after Darkforge is cleared for instance. People who routinely do 3 stoma pre-crowns probably think its shit, but I only do one pre-crown normally, IF I feel like pursuing an Ultra.

Tactics is a very nice skill, but I don't want to pick it up until I have eaten the Oracle, used some crystals of knowledge, obtained the CoS, and maybe found a boost learning pot.

So yeah, I wouldn't mind a Gladius mini challenge. I too remember being a nOOb, even before I discovered Dwarf Town, getting the Gladius was fun and awesome back then. I can't actually remember the last time I tried for it with an uprepared PC. Random or prepared save, whichever will be fun.

[gut]

I think the code divers discovered our 'boost tactics initiation
via high Le' theory was wrong.

[vogonpoet]

Are you sure? I seem to recall doing so with one of our Roman Republic PCs and getting good results... I guess this is pretty easily tested though... just need to trade the gladius with or without high learning gear what, 100 times each and check the skills added each time... Not that I have the patience for such a thorough test, but still...