what should i use, how will i die

[Sian]

just got a scarily good start on a Ravenborn DE Paladin

starting with Puppy cave as allways (after quick visit to generate smc), on first level i find a Halbard of Devestation, and down in the lair i find Skullcrusher and a [+7, +2] Large Mithril Shield ... which one of those two setups should i predominantly use, and how do you think i die?

[Silfir]

Skullcrusher/Shield, hands down.

[JellySlayer]

Skullcrusher/Shield, hands down.

I second this.

[Silfir]

Mainly because it always scores criticals against humanoids and is one-handed, so you can even use a shield with it. Since you already have a decent shield to boot, there just isn't any contest.

Sorry, there wasn't enough geekery in this thread. A dreadful oversight which I just had to correct.

[gut]

I say halberd, and not just to argue. Equip Suckcrusher + shield, then hit
'W' command. Your damage output will be something like 20, now compare
that to your halberd of devastation. Sure, you will get many shield marks
the other way (mainly due to how long it will take you to kill anything) but
there are downsides as well. Herb farming in the big room for instance. If
your PC kills most mobs in 1 hit, the big room is a fun exp. so you will
actually have a fun time gathering 100 crowning stoma. If, on the other
hand, it takes 3 - 4 hits per mob, prepare for a nightmare. You will wind up
getting irritated at 'all the BREEDERS!', and not be able to make your way
to the black wizard before he can summon a pack of vortices and displacer
beasts. Gauranteed.

Halberds count as polemarms, so the DV bonus will nearly compensate for
no shield. After you get crowned, you will be wielding Justifier anyway, so
no big loss there either. Just sac Suckcrusher now

[JellySlayer]

I say halberd, and not just to argue. Equip Suckcrusher + shield, then hit
'W' command. Your damage output will be something like 20, now compare
that to your halberd of devastation.

Except on ~80% of the game's monsters, where it will be double that, plus double the blessing bonus, double his (augmented) St bonus, and double his tactics bonus.

Sure, you will get many shield marks
the other way (mainly due to how long it will take you to kill anything) but
there are downsides as well.

I've never had problems 1 hit killing things with skullcrusher. Try using non-coward tactics.

Herb farming in the big room for instance. If
your PC kills most mobs in 1 hit, the big room is a fun exp. so you will
actually have a fun time gathering 100 crowning stoma. If, on the other
hand, it takes 3 - 4 hits per mob, prepare for a nightmare. You will wind up
getting irritated at 'all the BREEDERS!', and not be able to make your way
to the black wizard before he can summon a pack of vortices and displacer
beasts. Gauranteed.

Halberd of devastation won't protect you against a pack of vortices or displacer beasts. In fact, the +12 to-hit on skullcrusher will probably be much more useful against these types of monsters.

Halberds count as polemarms, so the DV bonus will nearly compensate for
no shield.

Uh... No. He'll probably have about twice as much DV with the club/shield. If he's one-hit-killing everything, he apparently won't be gaining many polemarms marks anyway.

After you get crowned, you will be wielding Justifier anyway, so
no big loss there either. Just sac Suckcrusher now

Yup. Just sac skullcrusher and watch your halberd of devastation get destroyed by an acid trap 10 turns later. Very clever plan.

[Albahan]

Purely for aesthetics you should go skullcrusher+shield. Have you ever seen a halberd in real life? They're pretty ugly looking. The only people who wield halberds are the fodder characters that get slain almost immediately. If you're going to impress the ladies an artifact club and a mithrill shield is much more stylish and hero-esque. They'll know you're someone important as soon as you enter the town.

You will die when Waldenbrook finds out you've been sleeping with his hot-piece-of-dwarf wife.

[fazisi]

You will die by getting confused in the CoC graveyard and getting your stats drained by vampires and wraiths, then in your frustration since you can't kill things as fast as before, commit suicide to water elementals in the water temple.

[gut]

> Except on ~80% of the game's monsters,

80% of adom mobs are vulnerable to human slaying? source?

>... and double his tactics bonus.

And still do less damage. Suckcrusher (+12, 3d6+2) [-3, +0] is a humaniod
slayer, and if memory serves, that just means it crits humans on all hits,
so doesn't stack with FW skill. Well, he's a DE, so FW is installed, and
that means the (+4, 6d7+7) [-2, +0] halberd would also get the above
mentioned boni on many hits, just not all.

> I've never had problems 1 hit killing things with skullcrusher.

then you must be doing darkforge after you find weakness ring

>> not be able to make your way to the black wizard before he can summon

> Halberd of devastation won't protect you against a pack of vortices

but CAN keep them from being summoned, as high to-damage allows for better
crowd control

>> the DV bonus will nearly compensate for no shield

> Uh... No. He'll probably have about twice as much DV with the club/shield.

Only twice as much if not counting other DV boni, which would be silly, as
he will have other sources (items, De: maybe even talents). Clubs at skill
lvl 10 gives +3 DV, but Suckcrusher is -3 DV, so cancels. Add in shield +7
and bonus +14 (if maxed) = 21 DV. AS opposed to polemarms = +12 DV at lvl 10.
Add in -2 DV of halberd for a net 10DV. So 21 vs 10 looks HORRIBLE by itself,
but add in his other 20 - 30 DV, then it looks like 41 vs 30 or even 51 vs
40. Not so dramatic.

So the net difference is Suckcrusher +8 to-hit and +11 DV, and halberd +29
to-damage. So which is better? How many points of DV = how many points of
to-damage. It is different for everyone, I suppose, but for the sake of
argument, let's say 1 DV = 1 to-hit = 1 to-damage. (which I think is being
MORE than fair to DV and to-damage, based on tactics settings observations).
Halberd is better by 10.

> one-hit-killing everything, he apparently won't be gaining many polemarms marks

Yes he will. Level 10 in any weapon skill happens easily.

> Yup. Just sac skullcrusher and watch your halberd of devastation get destroyed
> by an acid trap 10 turns later. Very clever plan.

Was kidding about saccing suckcrusher. Keep it in case you DON'T get justifier.
As for traps, blessing the halberd does wonders. Water/rust proofing isn't a bad
idea either.

[Silfir]

gut's arguments serve to amuse me, because they are so very wrong. Use Skullcrusher.

Find Weakness critical rate goes nowhere near the humanoid slaying percentage of important foes. Skullcrusher absolutely maims anything it slays reliably. If you fight something it doesn't slay, it doesn't perform so well - Serpent's Bite and Executor are better here, but beggars can't be choosers. Even then, you wouldn't want to use your sucky halberd either. To get rid of the snake from beyond, use missiles and wands or spells, if you have those (it can't do jack from a distance - if you don't exploit that, you deserve it. No matter what, you deserve it.). To get rid of the Ancient Chaos Wyrm - well, Skullcrusher can bash it to death eventually too if you were smart enough to paralyze it or something, but your halberd is a molten rustproof heap on the floor, so I guess Skullcrusher has a heads up here too. Yeah, eventually you will upgrade to a Darkforge eternium halberd (after you beat the steel golems to pieces with Skullcrusher, of course) or maybe even Wyrmlance. That's a valid choice to make, and eventually you'll get the rune-covered trident which might be just about equal to Skullcrusher.

But damage is not the main concern here. Skullcrusher lets you use a shield. A halberd doesn't. Spears do, of course - find me a spear that out-damages Skullcrusher by a large enough margin to marginalize humanoid slaying and we'll discuss it.

Why are shields awesome? Because they don't stop at 21 DV. If we take into account eternium halberds regarding endgame equipment, you'll allow me to count the full 39 DV of a fully trained eternium or crystal tower shield? Maybe we'll estimate it at 30 DV. That's the difference between 30 and 50 DV, for instance - that would be the difference between a normal dreadful ToEF experience and getting hit every single damn time by elementals and grues. I have never liked how much I got hit wielding two-handed polemarms.