General JADE ideas, races, classes, weapons, skills, etc.

[Moeba]

I like the awkward and very awkward, amongst others. I'd call it 'weird' instead of 'very awkward' though: a prefix with 'very' before it doesn't really work; it isn't classy, anyway. I mean, imagine getting a 'large iron very awkward battle axe' - pretty awkward, imo.

*of devotion: would need a more precise effect; piety for which deity? For killing any creeps, or just the ones of opposite alignment? But I don't think we can figure this out before JADE's alignment system is implemented.
*magebane: do you mean drains PP on strike, from the target struck? Or passive PP drain when wearing it?

[CloudKing]

@ Moeba,
it was on strike from the target struck

[Aielyn]

I was chasing a scared kobold through a dungeon when he ran into a room which had an up stair, got backed into a corner and I killed him. Which got me thinking. if that were a "real" dungeon, instead of running into the corner of the room (certain death) he more likely would have ran up the stairs and continued to flee. the same goes for monsters chasing the PC. in a "real" dungeon the Ogre pursuing you would not suddenly become "frozen" in place and stop chasing just because you went up some stairs. I imagine the Ogre is left standing there thinking "DAMN STAIRS!! MY ONLY WEAKNESS!!". So my idea is this..If the levels above and below the PC are left "running" then it might make for a more realistic scenario where in which monsters and other NPCs could move freely from level to level. companions would also benefit from this.

what do you think?

I like the idea of allowing some mechanism for NPCs using stairs without the PC also using them... but I think it would be a little bit overdone if levels were actively tracked. Instead, here's what I'd do - I'm pretty sure it's supposed to automatically update a level when you go to it anyway... so how about performing a calculation for the level you've just come from, determining how long it would take for an NPC to reach the stairs, and then having probabilities of moving level calculated from that information (with chance of moving level being higher the longer you spend on the next level). Then, if an NPC is determined to have used the stairs according to that probability, the game removes that NPC from the original level and puts it on the current level. Note that NPCs following the PC (whether tame or hostile) would have a much higher chance of using the stairs.

The opposing process, with the NPC travelling via stairs to another level, would be handled more simply, by including them when updating the level.

a few more spell ideas,

*MIND SIGHT: cast on NPC to reveal everything in their line of sight for 2D10? turns
*BLOOM:cast on herbs to blossom(expensive in PP)
*HATE;cast on NPC to make all NPC's in sight hostile
*MAGIC WALL:create magic wall that lasts 3D2? turns
*CRUMPLE:all skeletons/gules in sight return to corpse form for 2D2? turns
*BLOOD GIFT:cast on npc to recieve damage on their behalf for 2D10? turns
*GATHER:ball spell that "gathers" (makes them jump into your pack) all items in adjacent squares.

I'll admit, I'm not a fan of quite a few of these.

MIND SIGHT is somewhat weak in concept, although I get the idea - providing a new method of seeing a location. Some tweaking might make it good.
BLOOM is *far* too overpowered, even if expensive in PP. Perhaps a more subtle idea would be to have a spell that allows the caster to cause the target space to progress at 10x the normal speed for one normal turn duration. Such a spell would allow the user to cast on their own space, and thus gain 10 moves (or rather 9, since one move was the casting itself) in the normal time, so long as they remain stationary. Used on a target space containing herbs, the herbs would bloom more quickly (and corpses would rot 10x as quickly, too). It would, of course, be somewhat expensive in PP.
HATE - not clear on whether it causes hatred of PC or of target. If it works on a target, it's probably overpowered. If it works on the PC, I'm not sure it would be a worthy spell.
MAGIC WALL is one that I like. Effectiveness could increase duration, and the magical walls could even be impenetrable by some things that can normally pass through walls... but could perhaps be ineffective against, say, blind foes, unlife, or something like that.
CRUMPLE - so basically, a spell that, for a few turns, makes undead into corpses, etc, but undoes itself after that? Sounds really gimmicky.
BLOOD GIFT just sounds strange. Is it basically an "any attack on target uses PC's HP rather than target's HP" sort of deal?
GATHER, I have the same problem with as your idea for REACH - specifically, that it basically just lets you get all the items on the ground in the area, which would be overpowered if done in that way. What might be somewhat less overpowered would be if it gathers the items to the space under you, so long as a foe isn't standing on top of it at the time. This forces you to take the time to pick up the item (which can be difficult when faced with foes), and prevents you from just stealing items from underneath guardians, or from clearing the floor of a vault without fighting through the enemies in it.

For the weapon ego ideas you put forward in the next one, I'll incorporate my suggestions into the quote:

some weapon prefix suffix ideas,

Suffixes,

*of the firm grasp: cannot be disarmed
*of the gorgon: killing blow may petrify (not guaranteed)
*of experience: occasionally adds an extra weapon skill mark
*of devotion: may gain piety on killing blow (has negative effects if used by Lawful PC on Lawful NPCs or by Neutral PC on Neutral NPCs)

Prefixes,

*necromantic: if a corpse is left it will be instantly raised as an undead (a goblin killed with this weapon will become a (hostile) goblin skeleton etc.)
*magebane: drains PP of target
*abnormal: will not add to weapon skill marks when used
*bizarre: will subtract from weapon skill marks when used
*revealing: makes visible on successful blow

Some extra ideas:

*of consumption: increases satiation with every successful hit. Note that, with the reduced speed of change in satiation in JADE, this could cause major problems as the PC becomes well and truly bloated, potentially resulting in new complications (I'd like to see a level of satiation that results in death from overconsumption).
*of the beginner: weapon's stats vary depending on weapon skills of the user. Those with low weapon skills in the appropriate weapon see significant bonuses, while those who are experts see significant reduction.
*of the expert: the opposite of the previous one, but to a lesser degree.
*of the flash: failed attacks with this weapon cause the weapon to flash light in the target's eyes, sometimes blinding them. Doesn't work in darkness.

*skyward: a reference to the recent Zelda game in name, has the effect of being more effective against larger or flying foes, but less against smaller foes.
*tranquil: reduces damage, but may induce sleep in the target.
*hungry: autocursing. Will attack any adjacent NPC at random, separately from PC's attack. Very dangerous if equipped in a location with many friendly NPCs, also causes problems with shops.
*gem-encrusted: -5 damage, sells for a high price.
*rune-covered: does massive damage to creatures of magic.

[dallonj]

those seemed like cool ideas. i dont think balance is as important as you are saying. Troll beastfighters were horribly overpowered in ADOM, it didn't ruin the game. I think its more important to focus on making it fun and crazy than balanced. I never complained to TB when my gnome mindcrafers couldnt make it past level 5

[Aielyn]

those seemed like cool ideas. i dont think balance is as important as you are saying. Troll beastfighters were horribly overpowered in ADOM, it didn't ruin the game. I think its more important to focus on making it fun and crazy than balanced. I never complained to TB when my gnome mindcrafers couldnt make it past level 5

The balance of the game is important - it's not about making sure all characters are equal in difficulty, but is rather about making it so that things that are meant to be difficult are difficult.

Let me give you an example from ADoM - the spell Wish. If it had been established as a spell that just works by casting, and no other concerns arise, then it would have been *far* too overpowered, resulting in Wizards being able to basically cakewalk through the rest of the game with ease once they found it (especially since a spellbook of wish is guaranteed in the Library). Instead, TB implemented it with a heap of restrictions; the result is that being able to cast wish as many times as you want has become a kind of challenge of its own. And while having the spell does make it easier for the wizard, it's only very slightly so, and only very late in the game.

A well-balanced game is more fun. This doesn't mean balanced between characters, it means balanced for each character. And just upping the PP requirements isn't enough to balance out an overpowered spell.

[Ssrrarr]

Alright

I don't know if merchant will be a class in JADE. Two of my most beloved characters were merchants and althought they are not easy to play they demand you to take good care of them and even have some cool quirks like the possibility of missiling off those doppelganger bastards with coins. Still, it can use some stuff to make it more friendly.

One thing I'd like to see for merchants is random deals with NPC's: Events a la "Will you spend some time with me?" happening into something like "Would you exchange that ITEM for ITEM/$?", probably even stats or skills when asking for very powerful stuff. Also NPC's randomly offering items for money would be nice. I don't know if it is easily doable, but putting merchants more into they lore by getting NPCs to recognize them as such feels like a good idea. Bandits and such could pay negative attention to merchant as well.

Merchants also need way better level rewards. Cancelling item destruction from attacks, traps and enviroment would be a poweful one for a merchant on a relatively advanced level, as a good merchant should know how to protect and keep their goods in shape through perilous trips. Automatic identification of Artifacts would also be a nice one, as they have gained knowledge of those mythical and highly valuable items through the legends and tales shared by those of their lore. Another item-oriented ones like reducing corruption from items or increase the generation of suffixed-preffixed items could be done, but I'm not that sure about them.

Those are just a couple of ideas regarding what I think merchants need a bit while not wanting them to get boosted too much, as they offer an intresting gameplay devoid of things like the extended carefree level rushing a wizard can scorch its way through or long happy tankings through the mazes.

[CloudKing]

Missile weapons will be being added soon and I have a few ideas as to what I would like to see in ADOM II that was not in ADOM.
Shuriken,
throwing axes(not just axes that you throw but actual throwing axes e.g."throwing axe of returning"),
blowguns,
darts,
tinkers grenades,


I also think that thrown potions should be a weapon skill or maybe train thrown rocks and also recieve the bonus from the thrown rocks skill.

[Aielyn]

Missile weapons will be being added soon and I have a few ideas as to what I would like to see in ADOM II that was not in ADOM.
Shuriken,
throwing axes(not just axes that you throw but actual throwing axes e.g."throwing axe of returning"),
blowguns,
darts,
tinkers grenades,


I also think that thrown potions should be a weapon skill or maybe train thrown rocks and also recieve the bonus from the thrown rocks skill.

How about having it so that both regular weapon and missile weapon skills have a category for "Strange" weapons? So, for instance, if you use a Large Ration as a weapon, it would train the Strange Weapon skill, while if you throw coins or potions, it trains the Strange Missile Weapon skill.

I'd also like to see some missile weapons that also have other normal uses. For instance, how about cutlery? Throwable weapon, and simultaneously useful for the Cooking skill. I'd also like to see magical gems have thrown effects - so, for instance, if you throw a Crystal of Fire, it explodes as though you just cast Improved Fireball.

A few other missile weapons that would be great for the simple fun of adding them - Waterbomb (it's really just a water balloon, but the splash would do damage to fire type monsters, etc), towel ("throw in the towel"), and rug ("throw rug"). The latter two wouldn't be of any real use, they'd just be for the humorous messages they'd generate. Try to Throw a towel, and it goes "Don't give up just yet...". Try to Throw a rug, and it goes "I think it would work better... over THERE."

[Moeba]

How about having it so that both regular weapon and missile weapon skills have a category for "Strange" weapons? So, for instance, if you use a Large Ration as a weapon, it would train the Strange Weapon skill, while if you throw coins or potions, it trains the Strange Missile Weapon skill.

I don't think there really is a skill for 'strange' weapons in general, especially because there are so many different strange weapons. A more logical approach in my view would be to count your average melee weapon skill (not the marks, but the level!) as the 'strange weapon skill' and your average throwing weapon skill as the 'strange missile weapon skill'. That is assuming there will be no 'strange' weapons to be shot (guns, for instance; or (small) catapults).
That using 'strange' weapons would increase the weapon skill is also possible, but then the strange weapon skill should give less bonuses than a regular weapon skill imo.