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Thread: don't mess with cat lord

  1. #1
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    Default don't mess with cat lord

    i was reminded recently why you do not mess with cat lord. i had awesome human pally. crowned with Justifier, and with Serpent's bite in second hand was destroying everything in his path. with about 40 str he one-shoted ACW in ToEF (my first ever character who managed this). so when i was facing kitty lord i was pretty confident. i even disabled that damn cat. he was severly wounded with human slaying missiles. so when i ran out of those nice missiles i decided to finish him in melee. turns out it was no me finishing. you miss the invisible cat lord, you miss the invisible cat lord. cat lord hits you gazillion times. you die. i hate this bastard. and overconfidence when your character is getting really awesome ;-)
    When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

  2. #2
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    Dual-wielding against the cat lord is a rather bad idea :/
    Platinum Edition ADOMer
    http://gamesofgrey.com - check out my roguelikes!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    Dual-wielding is a rather bad idea :/
    Fixed that for you.

    Emphasis being, of course, on the "rather". Mostly, you can smash apart monsters however you feel like it. I have a hard time thinking of cases in which dual-wielding is the mathematically best option. I think only two might exist at all:

    a) Early game Ranger (they sometimes hit much better, thanks to their innate bonus, if they wield two weapons, provided the off-hand weapon is light enough)
    b) Needle & Sting (which no one cares about, or better, should care about)

    Even if you don't actually own a shield and would have to leave the second hand free, there is the benefit of usually higher to-hit chances, the ability to use the more powerful weapon more often and most importantly shorter intervals between actions (1 attack for 700 energy points, to me, is superior to 2 attacks for 1200 or even 1100 for that reason alone. ESPECIALLY if the one attack is Justifier). In a game in which much of a character's power lies in the ability to carry and immediately use obscene amounts of items and switch between tactics or means of attack in instant, the damage-per-energy-point value would have to be quite a bit superior!

    If you do have a shield, there's no excuse. To counter all that DV you miss out on, you would need a truly obscene difference in damage. Only Needle & Sting with their dual-wield-exclusive damage and to-hit bonus provide anything close to it. Even then, it's debatable.

    The only real question is, of course, why I felt the need to write this lecture on why dual-wielding is terrible right at this moment. I think it might have to do with a lack of ADOM-related flamewars.
    Last edited by Silfir; 09-22-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    The only real question is, of course, why I felt the need to write this lecture on why dual-wielding is terrible right at this moment. I think it might have to do with a lack of ADOM-related flamewars.
    Ok.. I will contradict you for the sake of it, then.

    I think more people should try dual wielding, actually. It is fun and it is viable. I know because I tried.

    Will spam more crap here later, dinner is ready. Oh and to the OP, sorry for your loss, the cat lord is a real bastard.
    You steal a scroll labelled HITME. The orc hits you.

    Robbing BugCave with a banshee.

  5. #5
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    "Fun"? "Viable"? Now who in their right mind would care about that? It doesn't really contradict "It's a bad idea" either. Some of the most fun ideas in the history of ideas have been exceptionally bad, and pretty much any way to play ADOM is "viable", except perhaps playing without the arrow keys. If it weren't for moving to the Tower and back, you could probably take one of the four directions away; like, never use the numpad or arrow keys related to 3, 6 and 9 (east). If you restrict it to dungeons only, it's probably doable, actually. Get some teleport and you should be fine (not that you could move the teleport cursor to the right, but random teleporting is allowed). Does ":s" ask for a prompt if there is only one creature to switch places with? I sort of lost track now. Where am I? What day is it? I like pudding.
    Last edited by Silfir; 09-22-2011 at 04:18 PM.
    ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!

    Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.

  6. #6
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    Ok, I will put it sharper. Dual wielding is crazy powerful and can shoot your damage output through the roof. I found you need to take care of two things, basically:

    1. In the beginning of the game, your low DV will mean you need to play extra careful (later on, better equipment and weapon skills largely compensate).
    2. Raise your dual wielding skill to 100 as fast as you can.

    If you follow those two guidelines, I found that dual wielding makes you a killing machine in the mid to late game.

    You mentioned high energy cost. Compare it to mighty blow and tremendous blow.. those are regarded as good skills, right?

    As for lack of shield.. if two handed weapons like vanquisher, the cow axe, wyrmlance and the RCT are seen as good, that must mean that giving up a shield can be good.
    You steal a scroll labelled HITME. The orc hits you.

    Robbing BugCave with a banshee.

  7. #7
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    Dual wielding is viable, but against high speed enemies like the cat lord and casino shopkeeper it's just suicide.
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  8. #8
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    Nothing says flame war like replying to individual points with the already firm intention not to give in to points even if you know, on some level, you should. Of course, that excludes this post, because I know I am right and my arguments are irrefutable, though no doubt you will attempt to prove the opposite. Also you're a n00b faggot.

    1. I am pretty sure you can become a killing machine in a multitude of ways, if you optimize, and know a thing or two about the game. As far as I can see, you had no rules about only using terrible daggers and shamelessly employed eternium weaponry. Add to that Grand Mastery in daggers or wherever you ended up, and of course things die. It says dual-wielding is viable, not that it is a good idea.

    2. Mighty blow and tremendous blow are awesome because they are additions to your tactical arsenal you can employ in certain, limited circumstances: Huge damage blows that blow past PV. And yes, I think they are a bonus to the Barbarian class and I do use them, but it's very rare situations and I'm always apprehensive about it. Hocus Pocus at least has never used a single mighty blow and unless she absolutely has to, it will stay that way. I cannot imagine a strategic situation, save for the two I already listed, in which I would conclude that dual-wielding is the correct choice. This assuming, of course, that there is such a thing as "correctness" when playing ADOM, which for the purposes of this flamewar I shall staunchly proclaim.

    3. Giving up a shield can be good, depending on what you exchange for it. Vanquisher, axe of the minotaur emperor, Wyrmlance and the rune-covered trident are worth using even if you need to forgo the shield in exchange because they offer something in exchange. In the case of Vanquisher, Wyrmlance and the rune-covered trident, it can be summed up with the word "slaying". Vanquisher slays almost everything, and is a suboptimal choice in the rare case it doesn't, or there is an option available that is better still. Wyrmlance slays dragons, and can only be considered an optimal choice in any scenario that involves beating the crap out of dragons. Similar things can be said about the rune-covered trident. The axe of the minotaur emperor I have never owned, but I gather the reasons given for its endorsement boil down to "ASSFUCKS of damage, also more crits" and thus it will be a good choice in any case that involves the dealing of melee damage. I could go on but I won't, since it's missing the point, which is that since shields provide such perverted amounts of defensive value, greatly enhancing your durability in combat, there has to be a clear benefit involved if you are planning to justify forgoing their use.

    In the end, ignoring the issue of being able to act more frequently, you have to weigh the strategic or tactical value of your shield against the strategic or tactical value of your off-hand weapon. Similarly, you have to weigh the value of the off-hand weapon against the value of your main hand weapon. If your off-hand weapon is significantly inferior to the main hand weapon, you are lowering the frequency of your main hand attacks and actually actively lowering your damage per energy point ratio: you would be better off leaving the off hand empty! Even if your off-hand weapon is close enough to the main-hand weapon that you are gaining in damage potential, that same potential still has to beat out shield DV! The only exception to this math are Needle & Sting thanks to the completely bonkers to-hit and damage bonus that is dual-wield exclusive.

    This is also where the OP so regrettably erred; gaining little in power - in fact, I sorely suspect, diminishing it - by pairing the absolutely ludicrous Justifier with the paltry Serpent's Bite, in its own right a worthy main hand weapon, but utterly marginalized by its companion. In the same action, he increased the number of attacks the cat lord would get in during melee combat until he would be able to react. The most crucial error, of course, was to accede to a melee fight to begin with when the battle could have won entirely from a distance, to no personal risk; but the same bout of overconfidence would have been of little consequence had he been using Justifier paired with even the most average of shields, or even an empty hand.

    I apologize for getting increasingly verbose through the course of this treatise; I am mentally preparing for what is soon going to devolve into a fit of procrastination in the face of expanding on my recent exploits in fiction writing. I also feel a slight peckishness for circular-shaped comestibles prepared according to traditional Italian (or US-American, as the case may be) cuisine, and shall endeavour to satisfy it forthwith.
    Last edited by Silfir; 09-23-2011 at 11:25 AM.
    ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!

    Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.

  9. #9
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    A flamewar? Ha!

    No one can beat my flames! :-P
    The lolcat lord growls: "U HAS RESPECTD TEH KAT RACE. SO IM GONNA GIV U DIS GIFT." The lolcat lord suddenly is gone. Nothing but a tiny cheeseburger is left of him.

  10. #10
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    Too many words have been squandered already. I shall avenge the cat-lord and shred him in melee while dual wielding.
    You steal a scroll labelled HITME. The orc hits you.

    Robbing BugCave with a banshee.

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