The new melee system - let's evaluate.

[grobblewobble]

The original ADOM has in many ways a respectable game balance, in my opinion. When you just start out you need to be careful even with rats (depending on class of course), and there is a nice, gradual progression of tougher and tougher opponents. Of course there are some opponents that are a real challenge in melee and usually taken out with ranged attacks, but if you play a melee class and are clever about it, you can defeat every opponent in melee.

In JADE, new combat mechanics were introduced and old ones changed. Even though this is a beta, I think the game has been developed far enough to start discussing the new balance, at least as far as melee is concerned.

What do we think about the new melee combat balance? Are certain styles too good or not good enough? How about the monsters, in general?

My own impression is that at the moment, the differences between opponents are too great. In other words, the general tendency seems to be that you are killing loads of monsters that can't even scratch you, but then suddenly a monster that you expect to be slightly stronger rips you to shreds.

On the side of characters, I have the impression that the difference between a troll and a non-troll is a bit too large; the advantages of trolls in melee seem too dramatic to me. This is partly because of the new size effects (which make dramatic difference in monster strength as well, i.e. monsters fighting with large great swords hacking you to bits).

Do you agree? What do you think?

[Laukku]

I agree, the balance is all over the place. The size effects are far too great and should be halved. There are too many humanoids that wield overpowered weapons (the "great" variety) that can kill even trolls very quickly, but are rarely dropped. "Great" weapons are something that should only appear on later levels. HP values are very inflated compared to ADOM; all player characters have lots of HP, but also receive lots of damage. PV however stays at ADOM levels, and thus it is very difficult to find enough PV. Items should grant something like douple of the PV that they currently do.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I think Laukku hit the main nail on the head. I thing the main unbalancing factor right now is that HP and damage are disproportionately high relative to PV. We need either PV items with more PV, or all HP and weapon damage (including the player's, of course) to be divided by a factor.

I think if that were adjusted, a big part of the balance problems would go away. It actually makes perfect sense that monsters with weapons do more damage than monsters attacking with their bare hands, the problem is that armour won't protect the player from that kind of damage.

Another issue that has been commented in other threads is that shades and wights' stat drains are overpowered. Although this may fix itself when we get ways to deal with them from afar (such as missiles), I still think that should be toned down a bit, along with stat loss caused by (apparently) bloatedness in the wilderness.

About the size differences and trolls, I disagree with the previous posters. I think it is very interesting that big races deal much more damage but, on the other hand and as a balancing factor, they find it much more difficult than smaller races to find armour of their size. That allows for choices and different playstyles and that's good. I think rather than nerfing bigger races' damage, which would make the game more uniform, it's better to balance things by making more emphasis on the differences. If playing big races is really easier (I'm unsure, my most successful characters at the moment are dwarven monks), instead of nerfing them by making them more similar to medium races, nerf them by making them more different: for example impose Dx or maybe speed penalties on them (this is coherent with laws of nature, bigger creatures are clumsier by the square-cube law), or DV penalties (larger surface to defend and more places to get hit on if you're big, this is implemented in D&D rules IIRC).

[Toll]

I think there is a great difference between troll and non-troll and I think that difference should stay. A large creature like that should be doing huge damage. My thoughts are similar to the above, those large creatures should also be much slower. Swinging a tree stump around should have so much momentum that the guy with a rapier can stick 10 holes in me between swings. I also think the Troll's have a few too many HP's, it seems excessive. The damage output should remain.

[mike3]

About the size differences and trolls, I disagree with the previous posters. I think it is very interesting that big races deal much more damage but, on the other hand and as a balancing factor, they find it much more difficult than smaller races to find armour of their size. That allows for choices and different playstyles and that's good.

What sort of "choices" do you mean?

Also, I've noticed that sometimes a monster will come along that'll be stubbornly difficult to damage yet keep whittling HP away from you and it is of a common type that is otherwise not hard. These seem to almost invariably kill you or block your route and I think this needs changing.

[Orbic]

I do not agree with the above.

Use the "l"ook command - you get information on DV, PV , HP and weaponry your opponent carries around.
Use a warrior monk / nun level 3 and disarm those 2-handers / heavy weapons. You can get yourself a nice set this way.

Of course long range attacks are missing and costing a high toll of hurtlings at the moment, but what I like right now is that we have to learn and adapt to this new game. I'm happy that my ADOM experience is worth nearly nothing at the moment!

I like the size balance. Imagine a hurtling killing trolls in melee in 1 blow from a toothpick-sized sword... ridiculous. Flee! Dodge! Disarm! escape into the wilderness and watch the stupid troll disappear in the distance

[Elone]

Indeed, I find the bows rather ineffective in this version, as are slings. I find the current magic system rather inadequate for combat as well.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

What sort of "choices" do you mean?

Playstyle choices. Like, in this case, dealing great amounts of damage from the get go but being unable to use most of the equipment found in shops and dungeons vs. dealing less damage but having a much larger choice of easy-to-find equipment.

If the idea of the Dx, Sp or DV mods I mentioned were implemented, you would also have to choose between being big and hitting for lots of damage but being clumsy/slow, or being small and making few damage but being agile and fast.

It would be cool to have also small races (like pixies or similar) that would do petty damage but be experts in keeping out of trouble via speed and DV. A pixie could kill troll brutes by keeping at a distance and firing at them with a tiny bow... at least if he didn't get surrounded, of course.

[grobblewobble]

If playing big races is really easier (I'm unsure, my most successful characters at the moment are dwarven monks), instead of nerfing them by making them more similar to medium races, nerf them by making them more different: for example impose Dx or maybe speed penalties on them (this is coherent with laws of nature, bigger creatures are clumsier by the square-cube law), or DV penalties (larger surface to defend and more places to get hit on if you're big, this is implemented in D&D rules IIRC).

I really like this idea. Very elegant and realistic. Monsters wielding great large weapons could get a speed (or DV) penalty as well.

[JellySlayer]

What do we think about the new melee combat balance? Are certain styles too good or not good enough? How about the monsters, in general?

I haven't played that many games yet, so my results might be a bit skewed, but...

I haven't noticed much of a problem with regular monsters that I have come across. There have been a few close calls, and some monsters can be quite tough (the hill orc family, for example, tend to be quite a bit stronger than monsters of comparable DL). Stat drains from Wights and Shadows are really, really bad, and I think should probably be nerfed, even after missiles get introduced. My last game ended with my first encounter with a Troll. He was hitting over 100 damage on me, and pretty much mopped the floor with me. It might be that I was in an area that was just too high DL for me (I went investigating one of the chaos shard dungeons with my level 13+1 barbarian+thief, who had maybe 15-20 PV and 200 HP), but I hadn't run across any other monsters there that had given me any trouble, and had cleared one level and most of a second.

I think overall, the early game fighting might be a bit too easy. Very few of the early monsters can punch through more than a couple PV, and you gain health pretty fast. PC health regeneration is also much faster. I don't think I've ever been as successful at a Roguelike I've never played before as I have been at ADOM II.